EPISODE NAME: It Wasn’t Always Easy: Boyd, Schroeder on Growing Their Businesses and Angus 

Starting out in the Angus industry wasn’t easy in the 1980s and 1990s, but as the old adage goes: where there is a will, there is a way. Doug Schroeder, of Clarence, Iowa, and Charlie Boyd, of Mays Lick, Ky., talk about the beginnings of their businesses and the opposite end of that continuum, transitioning to the next generation. They cover the tough decisions they had to make while serving on the American Angus Association Board of Directors and the progressiveness of those before them. This episode takes listeners from the early years of “working at Hardee’s and fixing tires” to living the dream of raising Angus cattle, kids and crops. 

HOSTS: Miranda Reiman and Mark McCully  

GUESTS: Charlie Boyd and Doug Schroeder 

Charlie Boyd II, Mays Lick, Ky., graduated from the University of Kentucky, and after a short stint away, returned back to his family’s Boyd Beef Cattle operation. He and his wife Paula added Angus cattle to the historical Hereford herd, and today their sons, Blake and Logan, are raising cattle with them.  

Charlie served two terms on the American Angus Association Board of Directors, and was president and chairman of the Board in 2017. He’s served as president of the Kentucky Angus Association, and he and Paula volunteered as co-chairs of the National Junior Angus Show (NJAS) in 2003 and 2012. He enjoys cattle shows and has evaluated cattle across the United States.  

Doug Schroeder, Schroeder Angus, and his wife Glenda were married in 1982 and started their operation near Clarence, Iowa, with the purchase of five head. They have three children who participated in the Angus junior activities, and today their son Drew farms alongside them.  

Doug served on the American Angus Association Board from 2008 to 2014, chairing the Certified Angus Beef Board his final year. He served as the president of the Iowa Angus Association and on the Iowa Cattlemen’s Association board. In addition, Doug and Glenda were both Iowa Junior Angus Advisors for 13 years and chaired the National Junior Angus Show twice. 

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Miranda Reiman (00:03):
Welcome to the Angus Conversation. I'm your host Miranda Ryman with my co-host Mark McCauley, CEO of the American Angus Association. How's life in St. Joe? Mark?

Mark McCully (00:13):
It is excellent, and like all farmers and ranchers, I'm going to first talk about the weather. It's cold. We winter has arrived. It's a little chilly. We love this building and the heritage of this building, but part of having an older building is we have an older, much older heating system and the boiler has not caught up to the temperatures outside. So everyone's walking around with a couple extra layers on in the office, but things are good. Things are good. We've had a really great week. We actually just wrapped up having our new directors, Danny PAs of Nebraska, Ron Hendrickson of Kansas, and Mark Johnson of Oklahoma. We've spent really the whole week with 'em doing some new director orientation.

Miranda Reiman (00:56):
And the fun part about that is you get a chance to introduce them to all the staff in the office. And then you guys also go out to Worcester, Ohio and do some orientation out there as well.

Mark McCully (01:06):
We do, and actually we did it a little bit backwards just trying to juggle everybody's calendars and schedules. We actually started in Worcester, so we went out there first and we spent a couple days. Some might not know that actually there is a separate board meeting that happens for certified Angus beef in December. That was something started years ago as an additional board meeting. And the rationale was we could have directors that might be on the board for a couple terms and maybe never get to the Worcester office and see everything that goes on, meet that team. And a lot of times it's hard to convey what's all going on at certified Angus beef through just PowerPoint presentations and talk. So it's a lot of times it's really great to just go there and spend a day. And so we actually had a board meeting set up there, but we spent a day with the new directors just getting them oriented with that.

(02:05):
And then when we wrapped up, we came back to St. Joe and then we spent a day and a half here getting to meet all of the team and going through the different departments and the different entities that are based out of here and get their questions answered. We had the fire hose pretty wide open and fill them full, a lot of information, but the whole purpose is that a new director could now come into their first board meeting in February and hopefully feeling like they've got a good foundational information around just financials, discussion topics, rules and policies, all the things that allow this organization to be governed by a great set of leaders. So it was a great several days.

Miranda Reiman (02:48):
Is there visiting with you on the tail end of that, or maybe as you think about what you heard in all of those presentations, are there any things that jump out at you as maybe some of the most exciting things that they learned or things that they were most surprised by? Or is all of it kind of as expected?

Mark McCully (03:04):
I think for those that haven't been to certified Angus Beef, if you've not physically been there, been to the culinary center, probably you hear about, well, we're marketing the brand around the world, but when you really start literally go into the warehouse and walking through all the point of sale material and understanding that we've got to have it in six different languages, and you start starting to see, touch and feel, all of those different things go to the studio where they're doing food photography. And so I think that's always, for those directors that haven't physically been to certified Angus Beef, I think that's a little bit of an aha moment or just puts a lot more depth and substance to maybe what they understood about Certified Angus Beef, the organization and what that team does every day. So that's always kind of a big one.

(03:59):
I think for our directors coming here, a lot of times just getting into, they understand most of our directors have a pretty good feeling or pretty good knowledge base of a lot of the workings, the association and a GI and Angus Media and the foundation. But I think to go another level or two deeper of the understanding that they need to have coming into a boardroom around the financials and how budgets work and how revenue works and where the expenses are at, and really doing a deep dive into that, I think that's probably always a little bit of some good knowledge for them to have. And probably, again, I don't know if there's ever any surprises necessarily, but probably a bit of a steep learning curve to get caught up.

Miranda Reiman (04:44):
For sure. So as we've been talking about all of the folks, these guys are at the beginning of their term on the board. We interviewed today for the podcast, and I say today, this was actually a month ago at Angus Convention, but the guests we have on the episode we're bringing you today, serve terms on the board of directors and have kind of taken that knowledge and they're back in their own operations kind of passing the baton onto the next generation of producers. And so we got to hear about their experiences kind of from start to today. Then

Mark McCully (05:16):
Yeah, we had Doug Schroeder of Iowa and Charlie Boyd of Kentucky just really got a chance to sit down with them while we were together in Fort Worth and visit about what is, and we did. We spent some time talking about both as former board members, their time on the board and some of the things that they were as board members thinking about and wrestling with at that point in time. Just that perspective of now looking back at their time on the board a little bit reflectively and seeing some things that exist today because of the work they did back then. And then of course they're both a similar situation in that they got, as you mentioned, a next generation that are coming back to their farms and operations and working them in. And it was fun to hear their stories.

Miranda Reiman (06:01):
It's always my favorite when we get to sit down with people in person. So this one was a fun one to complete.

Mark McCully (06:09):
I think they'll enjoy it

Miranda Reiman (06:13):
Today on the podcast we're recording live from Angus Convention, which is really exciting because we get to have breeders here in person with us.

Mark McCully (06:20):
We always like in person.

Miranda Reiman (06:21):
Yeah, in

Mark McCully (06:22):
Person. We love the Zoom conversations, but face-to-face is a lot of fun.

Miranda Reiman (06:27):
Yes, amen. So today we have Doug Schroeder. He comes from Iowa. You and your wife Glenda started your operation in the eighties,

Speaker 3 (06:35):
In the eighties

Miranda Reiman (06:35):
With five Head, is that right?

Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yep, yep. I didn't realize you had all that already. Yes, you can fact check.

Miranda Reiman (06:42):
Yeah, I was trying to make it easy

Speaker 3 (06:43):
For you. We've been married 42 years,

Miranda Reiman (06:45):
Spent time on the board, spent

Speaker 3 (06:47):
Time on the board, yes. Yep.

Miranda Reiman (06:49):
And also involved in the junior side of things. You guys served as advisors for that

Speaker 3 (06:53):
As your kids were? Yes. Yeah, Linda and I were junior advisors for 13 years. We have three children all involved in Angus operation. My oldest son is now, they have a place called Seven Oaks, and then my second son works with me and our daughter lives within an hour and a half of us

Miranda Reiman (07:13):
And grandkids then that you've got close,

Speaker 3 (07:15):
They

Mark McCully (07:15):
Have eight grandchildren.

Miranda Reiman (07:18):
Wonderful.

Mark McCully (07:18):
They're more fun than the first round with the kids. Right. Obviously you would've had them first. I get it. That's a consistent message from granddads grandmoms.

Miranda Reiman (07:28):
And I know that this is going to be a good podcast. I already saw you guys in the text messages back and forth heckling each other. So on the other side here, we've got Charlie Boyd as time would've crossed over with Doug's on the board, but you grew up on a herford operation.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
I did be the fourth generation, but my great grandfather, my grandfather and my father were all herford breeders. And when I was a junior in high school, I always had a fondness for Angus. And one of the most memorable moments leading up to getting the first Angus is my dad took me to the All American Breeders maturity in Louisville on a Sunday afternoon or Sunday to the open show. And I remember just the enthusiasm in that building, the amount of people around the show rang, and when they picked the Supreme Champion that day, and this was my first introduction to Paul Hill, I saw this guy out here with this 2-year-old bull, I thought was pretty good. And he had this funny looking hat on and Brower Hill Jay was Champion Bull that day, and that day was special because Premier would have these bull calves and whatever won the very first division in the bull show. People would line up and they'd have a stand there taking sea. Were ready to start and just how neat that was. And obviously things have changed a lot, but at that point in time, I've never seen enthusiasm at an event like that. Was that day.

Miranda Reiman (09:00):
So that kind of lit your fire for Angus?

Speaker 4 (09:01):
Oh, it did. Big Chuck know he was in trouble at that point in time. He was pretty open-minded. When I say grew up in the herford business, my great-grandfather and grandfather, strictly Horn, Herefords and dad transitioned into Pole Herefords. So we've had a history of transition and being open-minded. No, dad was open-minded. He thought it was interesting. He always said that the Angus breed was always 10 years ahead of the Herford Green, but also on the flip side of that, that Holsteins were always 10 years ahead of the Angus breed. He said this maybe 25 years ago. And really that statement is pretty true today. Yeah, absolutely.

Miranda Reiman (09:44):
And so you farm with your wife

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Paula and Paula and Paula, my wife and two sons, Blake and Logan. And Blake is, he's an Abbott Angus breeder. Logan. He likes both. He likes his show pigs too. He likes show pigs and show cattle. They're full brothers, but they are different.

Miranda Reiman (10:05):
That tends to be the way it works, I think. Well, you guys are both kind of at similar stages of life, I would say with you brought your next generation back into the operation, those kind of things. But we want to start, maybe go way back to the beginning. It was kind of a different era for Angus at the time that you guys started. Paint a little bit of a picture of what the business was like.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Well, as you said earlier, Glenda and I started with five cows when we got married. We both had cows of our own and we sold all of them and then went and purchased these cows at Eddie side stickers actually. And we started from there. And at that time, Glenda was working at Hardee's and I was fixing tires and we had an opportunity up from where I was from to rent a farm. And that's what we did. And we stayed there ever since. I've lived in that area all my life. Glenda lived 17 miles from me. My whole life was growing up and I didn't meet her until college. You're kidding me,

Miranda Reiman (11:07):
You guys didn't get out much.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
That just goes to show how good of a kid I was. I stayed home all the time and what I was supposed to do, that's what it was. Check. Yeah, you might want to do that. But my dad, my grand, my great-grandfather where my second son lives now is where my great-grandfather homesteaded. He helped all of his kids get started. All of that ground is still in the family's name other than 120 acres. My dad used to send cattle on the rail yard with his dad because Union Pacific is right there in Clarence to Chicago. And then Glenda's dad and wife, Glenn and Judy have been involved in Angus business forever. Glenda's actually the one that's been in the Angus business longer than I have. We never had to force, our kids have been actively involved in the junior association. We appreciate everything the junior association's done for our kids and enjoyed every step of the way.

Mark McCully (12:19):
So in 1982, talk about the climate around Angus cattle and what was in fashion, and they were a little taller and

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Bigger frame. They're about as tall as you could get 'em with nothing underneath of them. Yeah, the biggest one was at the front of the class. It was the best one at the time

Miranda Reiman (12:39):
And maybe a little harder to sell at that time too.

Speaker 3 (12:42):
Yes, it was tough. It was tough.

Mark McCully (12:48):
Did Charlie talk about your path back home because you went out and managed an outfit? I did.

Speaker 4 (12:54):
After college, I was still involved with the family operation, but the opportunity to manage Atkin River, Angus and North Carolina came up. And so that was a great experience with Richard Childress, who was the owner. He is a great person. Of course, he owned the race car, the company that Dale Earnhardt drove for. So it was interesting that he wanted the farm to model kind of after the race team. And when I say that everything was in very much detailed and that race shop that they built those cars, it was the most clean, most well organized place I'd ever been. You would not dream that that's where race cars were built. So he expected the detail at the farm to be that way. So he was a great teacher. It was time well gave me a lot of opportunity to meet Angus people that I would not have had that chance to do otherwise. So it was a nice opportunity and a great launching pad really. And then after Yakkin River, you went home and came back home? Yes. Okay. Yeah, I couldn't remember.

Miranda Reiman (14:00):
And that's when you started Angus there?

Speaker 4 (14:02):
Well, I started, I bought some heifers when I was a junior in high school, 10 of them. And with dad's wisdom, we bred eight of them. The shear Brooks has shown with the logic to keep those daughters, and I still like to show quite a bit too. So I bred my two favorites, the Ken Carl, Mr. Angus 80 17. Those two had heifer calves. The eight shoshones were all bull hepo calves.

Speaker 5 (14:26):
Of course,

Speaker 4 (14:27):
Just as planned, everything was going just as planned. So a little later on in a couple years later, I went to Columbus and they had the Ohio Superstar Heifer Sale and my really launching pad to Angus there was, I bought a heifer from Bill Conley's dad, bill Conley senior when he was at Gibb Hill Farm. She was Gibb Hill, pure Pride 93, and I had her for 13 years. And so she convinced me that I needed to be an Angus breeder.

Mark McCully (14:58):
So going down to Yadkin River, was that kind of your idea? I'm always, yes, it was. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
Yep. And I had family support. I don't think they were thrilled with it, but they saw that value, experience, the value that came from it. So it all worked out good. Yeah. Yeah.

Mark McCully (15:19):
Was there ever, for you, Doug, was there ever an option other than coming and starting to buy cows and starting an operation, was that always the grand plan?

Speaker 3 (15:30):
I started with hogs and then I bought some heifers and then just continued. And no, I always wanted livestock. That was the plan. Always wanted to be around livestock and I've enjoyed the changes in the genetics throughout the years and how much they've changed and what we can do with just a single drop of blood, things like that. The things that we've received from the association to market our cattle the way we want to do it. So yes.

Miranda Reiman (15:59):
Do you think it's easier for you to make change today than it was?

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yes, I do. I do believe it's not as fast as you want it to be. It takes a while. Sometimes you don't see things that you should, but it takes a long time to get that next generation going. But you do have more tools to use to make it easier for your selections.

Miranda Reiman (16:23):
Sometimes I think that's a little bit of a double-edged sword. You have more tools, but then you have more data to sift through more

Speaker 3 (16:29):
Data,

Miranda Reiman (16:30):
More things to learn more. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
You use the tools that fit your environment. We shouldn't single trade ourselves. I'm sure Charlie would. I think you would agree with that, but Oh yeah, I don't, we're

Mark McCully (16:44):
Hoping you disagree on some things today, so I'm not sure

Speaker 3 (16:46):
Which things we have before. We're just not going to bring that up. But no, we don't want to single trade ourselves and everybody has a different environment for your cattle, so what works at my place may not work two states away. So you have to adapt to all that.

Mark McCully (17:05):
Talk a little bit about both your programs today and I think what's a little bit unique about you guys. I know you both have an appreciation for phenotype and understand the visual side of things and the value of the show ring. You also have a foot on in the commercial side, so maybe talk about your breeding program, your philosophy and kind of what you're trying to get done maybe down in Mays Lake first.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
Yeah, just interestingly enough, an hour or so ago and just walked in here, a person approached me that they're using three of our Bulls AI and how they appreciated them for their phenotype with good numbers. And my comment was, that's the way we look at this. We don't want one without the other. And I really think you can do both. It is more challenging to do both as long as you don't chase too far in the extremes in any direction you're not going to. It's just like back to Richard Childress race cars. Not everybody needs to drive a car at 240 miles per hour. And so maybe when that speed limit's 75, you're okay at 80 or 85, but probably don't need to do 150. So I think there's a lot of similarities in that. And then the capital, just because the car does 120 or does mean have to take it there because unless there's pretty good guardrails, the results may not be very good.

(18:29):
Same way with cattle. Let's talk about your bull market a little bit. Yeah, I mean we've had, this year it'll be our 30th bull sale and we used to sell the bulls private treat, eat, but now we sell more of them and really it's become a focus. And Dave McMahon said something to me and he was really good in our junior program and he was someone I always looked up to, had a lot of respect for. And he bought some herefords from us at one point and he got a little frustrated and he just said, I can't sell the bulls. And he said, if Walmart could only sell half their inventory, they wouldn't be where they're at today. So I took that to heart. And so we concentrated on the bull side of things and we still have a female sale every year, but at our place, the bull sale is the focus.

(19:21):
We really wouldn't have to have a female sale now, but 30 years ago, the females are what carried the weight and the bulls were a byproduct. And now the bulls are a focus and you get to keep, maybe gives you that opportunity to keep more of those females that we call bull makers. So it's nice to do both and have the data. And Blake, my oldest son's really good about keeping me abreast of a lot of that. I mean every time there's something in the chute, we've got our phones out and this Angus app is so handy and he say, wait a minute, we need to work on pap here or heifer pregnancy or we look at all those traits. We believe that the indexes are a valuable tool, but in our bull market it starts on the left hand side of the column. It starts with c, e, d and goes to growth, foot quality and docility. Those are the driving factors. Then when you can add on, it's just like buying a new truck. If you want to improve your stereo, you can add some more marbling. If you do want air or electric windows, just add those things on as we go. But the fundamentals are maybe some of the traits that unfortunately sometimes get under value

Mark McCully (20:45):
Left behind if not careful. Yep. Yep. Doug, how about your program?

Speaker 3 (20:50):
I guess I'd use Glenda and myself as when we go to select a bull or a female, we look at 'em phenotypically first and we'll go through and mark 'em and then we'll go and sit down and take a look at the EBDs and match 'em up to what we want or what we need in our program. And that's basically how we do our selection, but we do it phenotypically first. I'd add to what Charlie said when Blake is telling him when he's at the shoot and everything, and Drew will do the same thing. He'll especially on docility a couple times through the chute and you notice that on the same one and he'll say, this one needs to see a new home, time for this to go, not another

Speaker 4 (21:33):
Breeder needs to see because all of our customers are getting older too, and it's important. Or

Miranda Reiman (21:39):
In your case, you've got those kids out there working and granted

Speaker 3 (21:41):
Too want kids and you want 'em to be safe. And that is I think highly important.

Mark McCully (21:48):
Your marketing program at your place?

Speaker 3 (21:50):
We sell well, we have an online heifer sale in the fall. And then as far as the bulls, we sell private treaty. We'll go to the Iowa Beef Expo. We have sold bulls at National Western Oklahoma and places like that. We have a couple small regional sails, Eastern Iowa sail, and then we always put some bulls in Iowa Cattlemen's Association Bull Test and that's how we sell ours. We haven't broke down to have a bull sail because that's a big step.

Miranda Reiman (22:26):
Was that an asterisk with it yet or it sounds like it's been talked about.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Oh yeah, it's been talked about many times.

Miranda Reiman (22:32):
Yeah, many times. Yeah. That seems like a good place to push pause and hear a quick word from our sponsor. What happens when you combine premium cattle marketing with one of baseball's most iconic venues? Introducing Stockman at the stadium Live AGS inaugural video auction event held at Denver's Coors Field on January 16th. They're bringing innovative cattle marketing to the big leagues, showcasing quality genetics where baseball history is made. Don't miss this groundbreaking, you're in town for the National Western Stock Show. Visit live ag.com to learn more and consign your cattle today. And with that we'll get back to the conversation

Speaker 3 (23:20):
Where I live, I'm putting fences in, most people are

Mark McCully (23:22):
Taking fences out. Well, that's what I was just going to ask. What's your talk about Iowa and what's going on there in terms of the cow calf population and your bull customer and you got to go further to get 'em? Are there opportunities

Speaker 3 (23:33):
We need young farmers and ranchers? There is no question about it. We have to somehow educate so that they can make a living doing this because without 'em, we don't survive. For most of our commercial men in our area, they're 40, 40 cows, 50. There's some larger ones than that, but they all need a bull or a couple bulls, so you have to be prepared for that. But yeah, the fence is, that's the situation in Iowa.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
It's

Speaker 3 (24:05):
Kind of tough.

Speaker 4 (24:09):
Unfortunately it's the same way in our area and we're in rolling country and Mark, as you know, you've been there and we're really not in crop country, but it sure looks like it now and a lot of fences have gone out. Our cattle population of owners are getting older, and as Doug mentioned, our next generation Doug's family and ours, it concerns me because I know where Doug lives, they sell that black dirt by the inch and we're still selling it by the acre, but it's still double what it was three years ago. So to me, the biggest challenge for young folks getting agriculture today, whether it be in row crops or the cattle business, is the availability and the affordability of land. Because without land and being able to acquire land is critical and at some of the values that are being placed on it now, it's pretty tough for a young person to make those things work. So I would hope that at some point in time we can have some opportunities through some government things and some common sense and even with cattle organizations that we can find some ways to transition family operations at a more effective pace and opportunity for these people because without them we have no future.

Mark McCully (25:38):
So beyond, obviously that ties into estate planning and estate tax and some of those things obviously. Have you seen anything creative from the standpoint of some lease agreements, some landowner that maybe don't want to run cows that are looking for some young people to come get plugged in?

Speaker 4 (25:56):
I wish we could see more because unfortunately in our area we're faced with two things. We've got a solar issue of some industrial solar going into neighbors that have signed leases and Amish are great people. They built our sail barn, just built a new bull facility for us. I think the world of them, but they're driving our land prices double because just as of recently, several have sold their land in northern Indiana for very, very good money, have increased our land values more than double, but they're still saving half. It's still a value. But to answer your question, some of the folks that have signed up for solar, some of the older people, instead of sitting down with young people and maybe having that conversation, they're just throwing in the towel and just signing up the solar and it's

Miranda Reiman (26:58):
Guaranteed

Speaker 4 (26:58):
Money. It's guaranteed money and they're headed to Florida.

Miranda Reiman (27:01):
Yeah,

Speaker 3 (27:02):
It brings up a point on transition. I know that there's a lot of, I shouldn't say elderly people, but people that want to move on and retire or whatever, I hate to see it when that piece of dirt gets given to some historical society, and I don't want to say bad things about their

Miranda Reiman (27:25):
Conservation,

Speaker 3 (27:28):
But if they want that money to go somewhere, why not sell it to a young farmer on a contract and take that money and give it to the people that they want to see have it? You've done two things, you've

Miranda Reiman (27:41):
Taken it out of production,

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Incentivized a young farmer to have the ability to farm and they've also been able to give the money to where they want to put it.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
And I really think this is somewhere where NCBA can come into play and I know from American Ag Association perspective, we have to be careful that we're not a political organization, but we are also a membership organization that we're just talking about transitioning. But I do think there's some opportunity for some of our major agricultural groups to sit down with some strategy to the elderly people that are maybe thinking about retiring and providing them with some advantages as well as the young people. It's a two-way street.

Miranda Reiman (28:24):
Yeah, that's actually been an effort that LMA has been really active and yes,

Speaker 4 (28:29):
Joe's been very, very lead in the lead on that and more power to him. Yeah,

Miranda Reiman (28:34):
Just like one of what could be a more unifying issue than wanting to see.

Mark McCully (28:39):
We all pretty well agree on that one. Absolutely.

Miranda Reiman (28:42):
Do you think when you guys started out, it's not like land values were, I mean gray, you had some of these same kind of,

Mark McCully (28:51):
It had some really high interest rates in

Speaker 3 (28:52):
1982,

Miranda Reiman (28:53):
High interest rates and really a lot of uncertainty on the other side of the equation.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
Back then their interest was 16, 17% land is always something that you want to buy and it never seems to be the right time to buy it, but usually after four or five years it was the best thing you ever did.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
It seems like every piece of property we've bought, we thought it was really high at the time, even had some neighbors at one point lost.

Miranda Reiman (29:21):
You were the talking at the coffee

Speaker 4 (29:22):
Shop, you lost your mind and now it looks really, really cheap. And so that's hard. There's a difference in land at three and 4,000 an acre to 10 to 15,000 acre now unless your bull sales averaging 30,000 instead of eight, there's a big difference.

Miranda Reiman (29:42):
Don't you think though, that there's a little bit more certainty? I mean we've had really strong bull markets for a lot of years. We've had strong cattle prices for a lot of years. Doesn't that give you a little bit more

Mark McCully (29:54):
When you have got both young sons coming that come back home, you didn't

Miranda Reiman (29:58):
Tell 'em not to. There's

Speaker 3 (29:59):
Some

Mark McCully (29:59):
Optimism

Speaker 3 (30:00):
And opport opportunities. We did not tell him. I never had to.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
No us either. And really when I graduated from high school and went to college, I mean you were kind of looked at a little funny when you said you wanted to go back to the farm, you lost your mind. There's no way you can make a living doing that. That part has changed drastically. I mean people see the opportunity there. It's just being able to harness all that with land values and things and limited cow herd expansion, maybe not really on the a horizon, that's a different subject for different day. But those are some things that they've got to take into account as they value how they value where they're going to put this preference and how to get started and to do that. Right.

Miranda Reiman (30:45):
So when your sons were coming back to the operation, was that like you sat down at the kitchen table and sketched it out or how did that naturally occur?

Speaker 3 (30:54):
In my case, my oldest son actually worked with me first and was farming in the operation together and then he had an opportunity to purchase some ground from his grandpa and then he moved. Then Drew, I can tell you this, both of them would've never been able to do what they're doing because I didn't have enough resources for them to do two farms. Drew had a different job at the time and it's turned out all for the best. Worked out really well. Him and his family lived on the farm where my great grandfather started and it's very humbling to see that.

Miranda Reiman (31:37):
So was it a natural handoff? I mean did

Speaker 3 (31:39):
No, no. Did he pull the baton out of your hands? There hasn't really been a handoff yet. I guess you might want to say. I mean, we're to the point though now that he takes care of what he needs to take care of and I do what I have to do and then we converse on things. He has his own separate farming operation, however the cattle are in then LLC, they're all together. Everything's 50 50 on that, which makes things a lot easier. I'm going to go back to transition just a little bit. We're only here for a short time and we don't own this ground. We rent this ground from our children and we need to make sure we protect it and hand it off to 'em in a better place than what we got. We receive it. So I think that's very important. Well said.

Miranda Reiman (32:31):
Great bit of wisdom there. And you also learned, you said he takes care of what he needs to take care of. You take, but you're never both gone at the same time anymore.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
No, we did that once and that doesn't work. We went on a hunting trip together and that just when we got back, he even said it, he says, we will never go together and come back because just

Speaker 4 (32:55):
One of us needs to be home. Oh, it's like Cattleman's congress in Denver. That's the only time of the year that we're all gone at the same time or we all think that we have to be gone at the same time and that just doesn't work very good. Blake's on his way here. Paul is here, I'm here and Logan's holding down the fort and everything will be fine, but in Oklahoma City, everybody wants to go. Logan, he likes to show and Blake loves the pin bulls and I think I got to be there to see everybody. Paula likes to see everybody. You get

Miranda Reiman (33:26):
A little bit of FOMO if you're not there.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
And then you got a couple of good neighbors, but they're not miracle workers. They got their own things they got to do too. And we calve in January, we try to skip that week the best we can, but then you're going to have a couple three go late or a couple three go early. And now with gestation as short as it is, coming early is more prevalent than going late. But yeah, it's hard. It's impossible to be gone at the same time really.

Mark McCully (33:50):
Do either of you guys have hired non-family labor on the operation?

Speaker 4 (33:56):
No, we have. We need some, but if you have some suggestions on how to do this, I'm all ears. And once you do find them, they're either really talented and they want to do what you do or they're not very talented and want to make what you make. And so it's not easy.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
We do not. However, we do have a young fellow that he's the same age as Drew since he was 14, has helped us on and off. He has a full-time job at the co-op, but he's very dependable. He only lives a mile away.

Miranda Reiman (34:33):
Even better,

Speaker 3 (34:34):
Even better. And my dad, as soon as I left, as soon as Glenda and I got on the plane, the first thing my dad did was called Drew and asked him what he could do because then he feels he's in charge because I'm gone. There you go. And so dad's hauling round bales of cornstalks today. Well, there you go. Which is awesome.

Miranda Reiman (34:54):
Yeah, it's nice to have that help there too.

Mark McCully (34:58):
One thing this morning I got to make some comments and one of the things I talked about was the opportunities that I think we've got in front of us as a breed, as an organization. And I started by also recognizing the leadership we've had in the past. And I look at both of you guys as former board members and first say thank you for the leadership. I do think so much of the opportunity we have today as a breed and as organization, we've had just fantastic leaders in the past that have put us in the position we are. As you look back on your time on the board, are there some things that you're most proud of or some things that you enjoyed the most to think about in terms of some of the things that I know not every year of the board was always a fun year, but there was a lot of good things going on.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
The best I remember, Doug, you were there from the very beginning on genetic conditions. Yes. The second one started on my first year and so

Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah, I don't want to interrupt you.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
Go ahead. Well, we had a few staff issues along the way and it was a ball. It was so much fun.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
It was interesting conversations. Yes, the very first meeting that I went to am your very first meeting, my very first welcome to the board of directors, to the board and then NH and then I'll remember this, there was guys from my state, they would say, get rid of 'em all, cut their heads off. And then there was guys saying, let 'em go, just keep breeding them. You had different spectrums, totally different answers.

Speaker 4 (36:38):
And that Dr. Beaver was always looking for another defect and in the board and association, all they wanted was another defect. And they're like, folks, this is nothing further from truth.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
We didn't want that at all In the end, I think we've navigated through the situation. We've gotten through it. It's actually made the breed stronger.

Mark McCully (36:58):
Yeah, I mean you guys were dealing with totally unchartered waters

Speaker 3 (37:02):
At times. People would say, well, we're not going to see another one. Well seemed like every six to eight months we were finding something and each one had to be dealt with differently. So whether it was a lethal or non-lethal and things like that,

Speaker 4 (37:16):
It's been very educational though. I mean, I think when and if the next one arises, which we're all realistic, we know it will, but it will handle 'em so much. We handled calf so much better because we had the experience of some knowledge the previous two. And so I think in retrospect, the first thing would've maybe been the policy might've been a little different in retrospect, but at the time it was unchartered waters

Miranda Reiman (37:46):
Just,

Speaker 4 (37:46):
And it was hard for the membership to grasp that because we were all at obtain as much information as possible and trying to make sound decisions based on science, but yet with the understanding of the membership and how it affected them and their marketplace. And so that was the most difficult part about that process

Mark McCully (38:09):
With an eye to take care of the breed, protect the commercial. I mean you guys had to look at this with a really long lens. Yes,

Miranda Reiman (38:17):
I've read some in the Angus history books about the way decades before, how they dealt with things, but with the advent of DNA technology that really gave you a lot more tools and information faster, able to clear it up quicker, those kind of things. So I mean, I don't want to say it was good timing, but at least the tools were, you had more tools available at that time. Tools.

Mark McCully (38:38):
So when you look at the breed today, I guess what opportunities, where do you see the Angus breed going? What are you most excited about in the Angus breed? What's the future look like?

Speaker 3 (38:48):
I would say that I appreciate the fact that certified Angus Beef and the brand and keep moving, selling more product. We need that protein in the diets. Our schools need that protein in the diets and for some reason we have to educate and keep educating. Every time we're turning around, we're being attacked by somebody,

Mark McCully (39:09):
A new dietary guideline that's pushing us

Speaker 3 (39:11):
Out. And we have to continue to educate that. We have to continue to make avenues for young farmers and ranchers to carry on what we're doing.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
And I think we talk about when we got started and then say we take back into the seventies and eighties and what the cattle were like and how we've transitioned and we've transitioned from big frame to when we had EBVs. And although they were helpful at the time, they're nothing like what we have today in terms of EPDs and the genomic information. So we've got some people think we got too many tools and the way I look at that, you don't have to use 'em all, but it's our responsibility to provide them all. And so it's just like when you go to a restaurant, you don't have to order everything on the menu and that's just the way EPDs and indexes are depending on your environment. But today's Angus cattle are the best they've ever been. Far none. And I think the commercial guy will tell you that too. Or we wouldn't have the market share that we have without the quality of the cattle that are available today. And as Duck said, and with certified Angus beef in the brand, the combination of those two things will keep the Angus breed in the form

Miranda Reiman (40:27):
At the time you guys were getting started. Some of those things that we look at as successes today, were just, I mean CAB was fledgling at the time

Speaker 5 (40:34):
And

Miranda Reiman (40:35):
It must feel good to finally be able to see that long game or the end game play out the way that you expected or hoped it would.

Speaker 4 (40:42):
You don't know how many times I thought about since we were, when we were on the board and we thought we were facing challenges, which we were, but you think back to those boards that when CAB was in its ancy and when those votes were just so close and registrations were still going down, yes,

Miranda Reiman (41:01):
Had to cut a bunch of staff and cut services,

Speaker 4 (41:04):
But you could see both sides of how people could feel your associations losing memberships, losing revenue, C AABs losing money. How can you support two 60 ships? Agree. And so I just applaud those people that stuck with that. I mean, they saved the Angus breed, literally saved the Angus breed, and I'm thankful to them for

Mark McCully (41:28):
That. Yeah, we talk about that eight seven vote all the time, and I think some people always, they mock the seven and it's like those seven were had I'm sure very, very valid reasons and other places to put those resources. I mean those were tough times and tough decisions

Miranda Reiman (41:45):
And probably had people calling them, telling 'em that. That's exactly to your point that you had people on both sides of the issue issue. I'm sure

Speaker 3 (41:54):
1978, I was a sophomore in high school, so I didn't know too much about it at that time, but my father-in-law served on the Angus board in the late eighties as well. As you said this morning through certified Angus beef, we're 73% at choice.

Miranda Reiman (42:12):
It's wild

Speaker 3 (42:13):
Wouldn, would we there today 12% if we didn't have that?

Miranda Reiman (42:16):
Are there things that you guys were talking about on the board or challenges you were hoping to solve or tools you were hoping to deliver that didn't come to fruition during your time, but now we've either tackled that challenge or you had to start setting us up to get there? Some of these things don't happen overnight.

Speaker 4 (42:34):
Yeah, I mean I think the maternal component of things when we were leaving the board were in discussions and those particular last couple boards were very passionate that we pursue a more comprehensive maternal index. Well, maternal plus became a reality when we were on the board and to see where that has come from since that time and how many times that we had those discussions that we don't have enough enrollment, do we make it mandatory? And then you'd had the argument, and we don't want to make anything mandatory, but we got to incentivize. And so to see how far that's come and how valuable that information has become into some new now functional

Mark McCully (43:18):
Longevity and

Speaker 4 (43:20):
Components that we have now. So yeah, I think there were things that we wanted to see maybe that move a little faster, but it's always better to get 'em and have 'em right than to get 'em sooner than not everything be just the way it needs to be.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
The only thing I'd add to the maternal part is we've thrown everything under the bus at the Angus Cow. She continually prevails everything that we do. And I think it's very important on, like Charlie said, on the maternal end, all the data that we can have to further better our breed. So I would like to add to the certified Angus beef thing as when I was on CAB board, we raised the carcass weight, I believe a hundred pounds. I'm

Mark McCully (44:04):
Trying to remember. We've raised it a few times

Speaker 3 (44:07):
To meet demand at that time, which is awesome.

Mark McCully (44:10):
Yep. Well, and I think those were discussions about no one wanted to raise the carcass weight spec, but there's always this discussion around you got to also make sure that you stay relevant and if the industry is moving and weight drives so much of our industry that if you don't stay relevant and that carcass weight spec is there around consistency. So if everybody's moving heavier, you can maintain a consistency, maybe a little heavier at times than we wanted to be. But I think those were hard decisions when you started talking about changing specs, specs

Miranda Reiman (44:44):
That hadn't been changed,

Mark McCully (44:45):
That hadn't been changed, but the vision of saying, Hey, this program has to stay scalable and it's got to stay relevant to have the impact that we want it to have 5, 10, 20 years down the road.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Basically at that time you needed to meet the demand.

Miranda Reiman (44:59):
And also when commercial cattlemen are being paid on that way, you don't want to penalize the very people that are trying to shoot for your target either.

Mark McCully (45:07):
Exactly.

Miranda Reiman (45:08):
What are some traits that you hope that we would have in the future? Things that we haven't solved or haven't even begun to have the technology to solve?

Mark McCully (45:16):
How will you be breeding cattle different in 10 years, 15 years? Is there anything you think you'll be doing differently?

Speaker 3 (45:22):
I'll go back to selection for my heifers. When I select heifers, I still go back to weaning weight ratios. I still use that phenotype data. So I don't think there'll be a huge change. You're still going to use the data that you have and you still need to use phenotype data in order to incorporate all the EPDs. And I've continually over 40 some years use weaning weight ratios as, because in my area weaning weight's what matters. That's what those guys want because they sell all their calves at weaning. And that's one of the first criteria is when I select heifers to be put back into the herd.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
And mine may be more of a concern. And in regard to that, Doug, is that, and I believe in ratios and we use those in weaning weights, and I know I'm old school, I still like ultrasound, seeing what their IMF and rib eye was. But now with all the good things that genomics brings to the table, the value of the phenotypes, and even in our operation, we do not ultrasound anymore. We don't spend the extra money to do it because we've already got the DNA in. I'm concerned as we go forward that I'm know as an association, and I know this has been discussed, it was being discussed when we were on the board, how to continue to get that type of information because for as advanced as we are and as fast as we move, those types of things still will be valuable. And so we can't measure the other things without them. So I think that's a key thing for this staff and future boards to get their arms around.

Mark McCully (47:10):
No, totally agree. And I think that's a concern as I talk to producers around the country of, I always, sometimes I on a little bit of a crusade, I do hear from time to time nobody's turning in data. Well, that's not true. I mean, we actually saw an uptick in most of the weights and measures now, ultrasound being one, and I think that's one that we understand and it's a line item on your budget. It's another time through the shoot and there's a real cost associated with that one. So that's an easy one I think for folks to go, boy, do I want to do that. That's why we put a little more emphasis on carcass data collection and the structured SI evaluation program, but recognizing those data collectors, recognizing the breeders that are turning in that really good data has been a priority. I know we'll continue to be a priority of how do we do that.

(47:56):
Maybe there's some tiers where we start recognizing producers if they're turning in so many, if they're whole herd reporting and turning in 10 or 12 traits, that sort of thing. There's an additional recognition that you, as you're talking to your commercial bull customers, help you differentiate yourself to say, listen, this is what we're doing Above and beyond that, hopefully then again, that translates into value and recognition for that. Because you're right, I mean if that data collection breeders stop the phenotypic data collection, the genomics at some point become, it ultimately has to tie to that phenotypic database,

Speaker 3 (48:32):
You'll lose your predictability.

Mark McCully (48:33):
Absolutely. Yep. Accuracy start going down and our reputation in the commercial world goes with it. And

Speaker 4 (48:39):
Credit to the association and you all as staff though, I think sometimes as members we take for granted the services and the things that are provided to us from St. Joe at such a reasonable price. And I say that being involved in another breeder and not that at their out of hand, but when you compare what you get from the American Angus Association for what it costs you, there's no other beef organization in this country that can rival that. We need to embrace that and be thankful for it and turn in as much data as we can because we're getting way more back from it than we're putting into it. I would agree with that,

Miranda Reiman (49:25):
Ed. We don't have time to turn that around for a testimonial. The genetic symposium's going to start here in about a half an hour. That would be really good to have on stage for that for sure. I guess as you guys look to the future, we asked you kind of big picture for the Angus breed and that, but give us what's the next things on the horizon in your own operation?

Mark McCully (49:45):
Bull sailed Schroder is what I heard.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Yeah, I mean that's something that we've talked about quite a bit and extent, but it it's a big step to take and whether or not we can

Miranda Reiman (49:59):
Help you with your marketing if you need to.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
I know that. Yeah, I know that. Yeah, so I'll go back. Drew and I read things a little bit differently at times. He still likes to show a lot of bit, which I love the show ring, don't get me wrong. We tend to breed a little bit differently when it's AIing time. Sometimes

Speaker 4 (50:16):
I'll send Logan to your house.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
You've got one of those too.

Speaker 4 (50:21):
Yeah,

Speaker 3 (50:22):
And that's okay.

Speaker 4 (50:23):
He understands the value of EPDs though too, because he reads the sale.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
Yeah, like the National Junior Pepper show. That's not just a show. That's an educational tool for our young people, whether it's quiz bowl, whether it's skillet on, whether it's team sales, everything. It creates them better leaders down the road.

Mark McCully (50:45):
Well, it's hopefully planting seeds and fanning the flames of young folks that are excited about the breed to continue on.

Miranda Reiman (50:53):
And I got to judge the CAB Cookoff this year, and I saw some of those grandkids come through with the really creative skit. I think it was this year.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Yeah, you got Sea Boyd. Yeah. That

Miranda Reiman (51:04):
Was pretty fun to see them start out and get some enthusiasm for even some of the, I mean, that's not just cattle, right? They're learning about beef and in consumer

Mark McCully (51:14):
Product and being an advocate to a consumer and how we have to talk about our product. Yeah, it's a great,

Speaker 5 (51:19):
Absolutely great event.

Mark McCully (51:20):
It'll be different in Malik

Speaker 4 (51:22):
With both boys back. I mean, we're going to try to continue to grow, but we also, we are going to grow our herd numbers without sacrificing quality. And then obviously we want to grow our marketplace, but I think that we're going to still stay focused on the quality part in that process and just not get bigger for the sake of getting bigger. And I see the Angus breed the same way to continue to grow our place in the marketplace, but continue to be the best cattle in the land too. So when you can do both hand in hand, we'll all be fine. Yeah,

Miranda Reiman (51:57):
I think you guys are really great examples of taking what you started out with, growing it to a point that you could have the next generation involved and really arming them to be successful. So thank you guys for sharing your examples today and for your leadership in the business.

Speaker 4 (52:12):
Absolutely. Thank you all for all you do. Absolutely.

Miranda Reiman (52:15):
Thank So we always end with a random question of the week though.

Mark McCully (52:17):
Yes.

Miranda Reiman (52:18):
Random question of the week.

Mark McCully (52:21):
Who's the most famous person in your phone? My wife. Oh, look at you. You beat me to it. I did. You guys are smart guys.

Miranda Reiman (52:32):
You don't have anybody famous in,

Mark McCully (52:33):
You have Dale Earnhardt or any of your NASCAR from your NASCAR days? No.

Miranda Reiman (52:40):
Probably my most famous person on my phone is you, mark.

Mark McCully (52:42):
Oh, wow. Yeah, there go. You need to broaden your horizons. That's right. We being so close to Kansas City, of course, we've got Travis Kelsey and his brother Jason. I'm sure both of 'em listening to this podcast when they're done recording theirs. I understand Jason has buying some cows, so heard that. That's what I've heard.

Miranda Reiman (53:01):
So maybe you need to get him

Mark McCully (53:02):
In your phone. My hope is the Chiefs have their training camp in St. Joe. I keep expecting them to pop by the office, and we're going to get that whole Kelsey clan in the Angus business soon and then I'll have all of their numbers in my phone.

Speaker 4 (53:14):
It's just like Andy Reed. I don't remember anything, any winning Super Bowl coach has ever said in their press conference after the game, other than, instead of what he was going to have to eat the night was the double cheeseburger. So that's a pretty good guy. He is a good guy. It's a good guy.

Miranda Reiman (53:29):
Well, thank you guys for taking time out of convention. We know this is a chance for you to catch up with friends and to chit chat, so thank you for taking time to come visit with us today.

Mark McCully (53:38):
Thank you. Thank you. We do really appreciate it. And again, both a couple guys I've gotten to know pretty well over the years, and truly, I respect your leadership. And Drew, as I said this morning, we are today where we are with the opportunities in front of us because we are so fortunate to have a heritage of great leaders, and I put you guys in that category and it's so fun to sit down and have a little chat today. So thank you. Thank you.

Miranda Reiman (54:02):
With that, we are nearly wrapped up on season five of Bianca's conversation. We have just one more episode, a bonus episode coming your way already next week. But in the meantime, if you've been enjoying these episodes, I have a huge favorite ask. Go to your favorite podcast platform and leave us a rating or a review that just helps other Angus breeders and Angus enthusiasts find the podcast so they can enjoy it too. Thanks for listening today. This has been The Angus Conversation, an Angus Journal podcast.