Struggles often lead to success, and that’s been true many times in the American Angus Association’s history. Illinois Angus breeder Gary Dameron, Dameron Angus, had a front-row seat for many of those pivotal periods in the breed’s history. From the early years of the Certified Angus Beef ^® (CAB^®) brand to the dramatic swings in frame score, he has seen a lot of change in his career. Yet, some solid truths have remained evident: the Angus family is strong, there is power in people coming together and the next generation wants to be involved.

HOSTS: Mark McCully and Miranda Reiman

GUESTS: Gary Dameron, Dameron Angus

Angus cattle, Angus activities and Angus people have been an important part of the Dameron family, Lexington, Ill. Gary and his family began purchasing registered Angus females in the mid 1960s to add to the small commercial herd started by his father and grandfather.

Black-hided cattle have played an important role in the Dameron family for the past four decades. In the 1960s, Gary and his family began purchasing registered Angus females to add to the small commercial herd started by his father and grandfather.

Today, the Dameron Angus herd has grown to about 200 registered Angus cows. The Damerons focus on raising elite Angus genetics that successfully compete at national, regional and local shows.

Gary served on the American Angus Association Board of Directors and was Board president in 1989. His four children, Christy, Jay, Jeff and Julie, were actively involved in the National Junior Angus Association, with three of them serving on the junior board.

SPONSOR NOTE: This episode is sponsored by Westway Feed Products and People’s Company.  

Westway Feed Products’ liquid supplements increase forage utilization when seasons cause forages to decline in value, our products deliver effective and efficient nutrition to your herd. To learn more, visit westwayfeed.com. 

People’s Company invites you to a major Vernon County Wisconsin land auction, Thursday, Sept. 19 at 10 a.m. Woodhill Farms is selling 818 acres of prime pasture, tillable and recreation land in 14 tracts. Visit Peoplescompany.com to learn more. 

Don't miss news in the Angus breed. Visit www.AngusJournal.net and subscribe to the AJ Daily e-newsletter and our monthly magazine, the Angus Journal.

Miranda Reiman:
Welcome to The Angus Conversation. I'm your host Miranda Reiman with my fellow co-host, Mark McCully, CEO of the American Angus Association. Hey Mark!

Mark McCully:
We're back into season five.

Miranda Reiman:
Yeah, this is fun. We say back into…we take a publishing break from May to August to the beginning of August and this year in between that we published a bunch of special episodes, so we really didn't take much of a break at all.

Mark McCully:
Well, that's true, and those were great. I hope listeners will really, if you've not listened to those junior takeovers as we referred to them, I hope you'll go tune in because they were a lot of fun to do and they were, again, they get you pretty excited about the young people we've got in the Angus breed and involved in lots of the different programs and they're going to be very influential down the road. I have no doubt.

Miranda Reiman:
We had Kim Holt on our team edit the transcripts for those as a proofreader for Angus Media, and she sent me back when she had listened to them kind of in preview. She says, I think I just listened to the podcast of several future board members right there. That's true. I thought that's probably accurate. That's right. So speaking of board members, we're getting right into, ready to head into September board meetings. We're talking about all of our fall activities when this drops. We'll actually be hopefully, God willing, both of us together at the Certified Angus Beef Feeding Quality Forum, but then it's kind of a steady march of Angus activities as we go on. We'll have some presence at the Montana Angus Tour, we’ll have some folks at the Certified Angus Beef Annual Conference, and then of course, first and foremost in our mind, is that Angus Convention.

Mark McCully:
Yeah, amazingly it'll be here before we know it. Of course, the first week there in November in Fort Worth, Texas, and we're really looking forward to the convention as we do every year. I think the team plans awfully hard and thinks awfully hard about what can be enjoyable sessions, valuable sessions, how do we provide an opportunity for Angus breeders to come together literally from all over the world. We'll have international guests there to get together in fellowship and enjoy Angus cattle and learn and celebrate, and it's really one of the highlights of the year. I hope listeners will consider, if they're not already, will consider looking at that first week in November and heading to Fort Worth to join us.

Miranda Reiman:
Absolutely. One of my favorite things right now is when I'm talking to a breeder on the phone and they say, well, I suppose I won't see you again until, and I'm, oh, November, will you be at Angus Convention? So come by, say hi to us, give us suggestions for guests and topics you want to hear on this podcast. Go ahead and give Mark suggestions for what you want to see him doing there in St. Joe. Just bring your list. We're happy to hear them.

Mark McCully:
Absolutely. Absolutely. It'll be great.

Miranda Reiman:
So, today's guest I think has been not shy about sharing his opinions, but also given a lot of his time and service and leadership to making this organization better, and we're excited to bring you to Illinois. So, let's meet our guest.

Mark McCully:
Gary Dameron is someone I think I referenced later that we had been talking to for a while to have on, and I think as an Illinois native myself, of course, someone I've known for quite some time, but also interesting, when I was at Certified Angus Beef, I got to know probably Gary a little better through that period of time, and he had such a unique perspective of being on the board through the early ´80s and being able to share some of those discussions and all of what was going on as we take for granted at times, some of the programs we have and Certified Angus Beef being one of those that we have today. Gary always had a really great perspective on how that all came to be and some of those tough decisions that boards wrestled with at that time. So, it was fun to get him on and have him talk about that.

Miranda Reiman:
Yeah, we talked about history and we talked about current day and covered a lot of ground. 
Well, today on the podcast we've got a guest that I'm very excited about and given that it's been show season across the United States, and this is getting recorded right before the Illinois State Fair, it seems like a fitting guest, Mark.

Mark McCully:
Absolutely. From the land of Lincoln and Lexington, Illinois, Gary Dameron. Gary, I think we've been talking about getting you on this podcast for some time, so we're just excited we finally were able to make it work and thanks for being with us.

Gary Dameron:
Well, I'm glad to be involved. Thank you for asking me.

Miranda Reiman:
Your bio, I guess, lists quite a bit of Angus experience coming from, I mean, a board perspective, and then I don't know if this tally has been updated, but I've read a lot of places that you've produced three national champion bulls, 16 grand or reserve NJAS Champions and more than 28 grand or reserves at the Illinois State Fair. Is that an accurate title?

Gary Dameron:
Oh, close. Yeah.

Mark McCully:
If it's not, you need to go update your website a little bit. 

Gary Dameron:
I'm not worried about it.
Miranda Reiman:
That's right. And I understand that you have also served as a judge at many of these events and have a pretty long list of those too.
Mark McCully:
Most recently, you and Jeff judged Denver just a couple of years ago. 

Gary Dameron:
Right.

Mark McCully:
It was fun to watch. So Gary, I think probably most everyone listening to this will know you or for sure know your name, I think, again, has served in a lot of leadership roles. We're going to talk a little bit about as your board leadership role. You served on the board in two terms, and then were board chairman in 1989, but maybe give us a little bit of the story, a little bit about your operation, your family, and what you do there in Illinois today.

Gary Dameron:
Well, we've been operating here between Towanda and Lexington, Illinois, for most of my life, I guess. I grew up on the home farm, which is about three miles from Towanda. We had commercial cattle, and I did not show any Angus heifers when I was a kid. I thought they were terrible, and they were. They were short and fat and inefficient, and fortunately the world realized that sooner than later and we began to change things. The problem is we didn't slow down the change process, we just kept going. But that's beside the point. But anyway, I've got four children that all live within three miles of the home place here, and they're all involved in the operation, and I'm really grateful for that. I got on the board, I guess ´81, ´82 on there somewhere and did serve two terms on there and was chairman my last year.

But it was a pretty trying time, and I don't think the public today realizes how trying it was because most of the people that were around at that time are no longer around. This was, I think, to understand the biggest problem we had was trying to get CAB off the ground, and the biggest decision we made meeting to meeting was whether or not to fund CAB until the next meeting. I mean, that's just the way it was, and that went on for several years and we just couldn't get any traction with that thing. And the thing that really complicated the whole process was that we went from like 400,000 registrations in ‘69 long in there somewhere to less than 150, 15 years later. And so we didn't have any funds. I mean, we terminated a lot of employees during that time. It was a pretty rough time.

So we're trying to get CAB off the ground. I don't think anybody on the board at that time had any indication that it would be the success that it is today. I mean, today, it's one of the great success stories in the history of American agriculture, but I mean, we were dealing with this funding issue and that's what held people back. I don't think anybody on the board was opposed to the idea, but I don't know if I assure you, no one thought it would reach the point it has today. So that was a big issue at the time, was trying to get this thing flying. Mick worked his tail off, but I don't know that we would've got the thing going until we ran across this fellow from University of Florida that had an in with the white tablecloth crowd that kind of got us going and opened the door, and this guy's name was Berkowitz. And like I mentioned, he was with the University of Florida and had some traction and helped us get some doors open and get the thing going. But I mean, that in a nutshell is what the problem with CAB was in those early days because we were trying to get it going, plus we didn't have the funds to keep it going basically. And we even got some opposition from staff because they were concerned that they're going to lose their job trying to support this rat hole proposition that we had. And that's how it was viewed by a lot of people that we were throwing money down a rat hole.

Miranda Reiman:
Did you ever wonder if you made the right decision, like in the next few years that followed? Did you think, maybe we did throw money down a rat hole?

Gary Dameron:
No. I was always on board and maybe more than I should have been because I probably offended a lot of people on the way. But I mean, there were a couple of votes that came up and it was voted hung on by one vote one time and got voted down another time, and then we revolted and got up to stay intact. But no, I thought it had promise. Do I think today that I had any idea would be what it is today? Absolutely not. So I mean, it's pretty amazing and not only has it worked, we've had great staff there to make it work, and Mark's been an integral part of that along the way. Luckily, he was there and we were able to find him there and convince him to move to Missouri, but…

Mark McCully:
For the easiest job I'd ever take. That's how you billed it, right, Gary?

Gary Dameron:
That's right. That's right. That's right.

Miranda Reiman:
And Mark had no idea that it would be…No, I'm kidding.

Mark McCully:
It's great. But I do tease you from time to time about the easiest job I could ever take.

Gary Dameron:
Well, you got to realize, if I told you the truth, you might've ran the other way.

Miranda Reiman:
Tell me, when you think about that time of being on the board, I mean obviously to serve two terms, I'm thinking it probably wasn't the most fun time to be on the board, right? It's easy to be on when there's lots of success and the numbers are all headed in the right direction. What made you sign up for a second term?

Gary Dameron:
Oh, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed serving the people I served with. I mean, this is a people business and I enjoyed the people I served with, and I enjoy all the people that we've come in contact with through Angus cows. I mean, that's what it's all about to me.

Mark McCully:
Gary, what was it like, well today on the board, we've really, I know the board members have really worked at transparency and in a time where there's Facebook and all the social media, and how did you interact with the membership at that point? And I guess maybe what I'm asking is were you getting pressure from the membership at that point in time in those ´80s? Were they aware of the struggles in the boardroom and if you will, the tug of war for resources and what to fund? How did that work at that point in time?

Gary Dameron:
No, I don't know that the public was fully aware. It just like today, that's why I bring this up. I don't know if the public today is fully aware of the struggles we had back then. I mean, I guess there was quite a few terminations because of this financial situation, and I guess it should have been pretty easy for people to see the mess we were in based on that. But it was a different time. And I mean, another thing that people aren't aware of, when I first got elected to the board, as soon as the election was over, I walked into a disciplinary hearing

And Harvey Lemon and I were elected at the same time, and we were supposedly the two non-biased members of the board because we hadn't heard any information. And this was the first of many, many of these that we had. I mean, it was amazing times back then. And what happened is we began to put more frame in these cattle while people started to make shortcuts and they were incorporating Holstein, they incorporated Brown Swiss and everything else. At that time, we had blood typing groups developed by Ohio State University that we could use to define what was an Angus and what wasn't an Angus. And so we were using that information or that technology at that time to discipline membership. And that was a big part of every meeting actually for several years, which I'm sure most people aren't aware of today for a lot of the cattle or the breeders that we were kicking out were from Oklahoma. So I used to tell Callahan, if we'd eliminate Oklahoma from the union, we'd have a lot less problems in St. Joe, Missouri.

Miranda Reiman:
That's funny, that I'm thinking. So you've had a lot of things to deal with that maybe we're not dealing with today, but what kind of lessons can you take from that period of time that we can apply or why do you think it's so important that people know about that struggle and those kind of harder years?

Gary Dameron:
Well, I think they should, hopefully they'll have a better appreciation of Certified Angus Beef if they realize how close we came to not having it. I mean, where would we be today without it? And not only did we have this huge decrease in revenue because of decrease in registration, we didn't have CAB generating any income either. So I mean, it was pretty tough.

Mark McCully:
You bring up those numbers and I pull this graph up because, you're right, and I think a lot of people forget, Angus weren't the popular breed at the time, and in fact, they were falling out of popularity at a pretty fast pace and losing market share to the Continental breeds and the exotics. And so you and I were talking the other day, I mean think about, we had a one-year drop in registrations of over 50,000 registrations leading up into those times. You think about just the ramifications that has to the membership and then of course the organization. So those could not have been fun times to sit in the boardroom making decisions about programs that the hope was, in 10 and 15 years, they would be what they are today. That took vision.

Miranda Reiman:
I've been reading a lot of Angus history lately, and one thing that I noticed is throughout the history there was a lot of yo-yo or really volatile. It was in its boom time and then the thirties came and it was dropped, and then it took a long time to build up where I think it feels more stable today even if we've had little dips or we've had lots of increases too. But what do you think got us to the point where we could have more stability in the breed? Because really the first half of the decade there was no stability, and then for a while the stability was decreasing, which is not what you want. So what do you think got us to that point where we could feel a little more confident and make an investment?

Gary Dameron:
I think what got us to that point is that we've made these terrible mistakes in the past and we could look back on them and better navigate the future. I mean, like I mentioned, the reason I didn't show any heifers when I was a kid is because they were terrible. I mean, they were short, fat, inefficient. But about the time that I got done or was out of junior work, things started to change. I mean, there was carcass shows everywhere. People could see how a lot of these cattle were way too overdone. Yield grading came along about this time. We realized that we need to have cattle that had a little more growth, we're a little more efficient, and we started to change. And by the late sixties, why it had changed quite a bit, but we just kept going and we ended up with cattle that were just as worthless in the other direction.

I mean, I think the elephant ad that we had was one of the best ads that's ever been produced, and that's the way it was. I mean, we had cattle that were too big for everything. And I mentioned these people getting brought up because of using non-Angus genetics. Well, all they're trying to do is get more size. So they either, some people tried to do that, but what a lot of people did was go to other breeds. And that's why our registrations nose-dived, and people were running all over the country trying to find Angus cattle with a little more frame, a little more growth. And that was a big part of the seventies, late sixties, seventies and so forth. But I think where we are today, I mean these cattle are fine. I mean, for the most part, these are useful cattle that got some fertility, got some usefulness as far as the whole industry's concerned. I think as we look back and see where we've been in the past, it's a little easier to stay in the middle of the road now.

Mark McCully:
We see where the ditches are, maybe a little more visible.

Miranda Reiman:
And we'll hold that thought for just a moment while we hear from our sponsors. Westway Feed products, liquid supplements, increase forage utilization when seasons cause forages to decline in value. Our products deliver effective and efficient nutrition to your herd. To learn more about the best way to raise beef, please call 800-800-7517. That's 800-800-7517 or visit westwayfeed.com. And now back to The Conversation.

Miranda Reiman:
So that probably brings up a good point or is a good segue into talking about how you got in, you said you didn't show Angus cattle, so how did you get in the Angus business or what opportunity did you see in them that led you to Angus?

Gary Dameron:
Well, I showed steers when I was a kid, and steers were a little more useful, and that's how I got started. But the commercial herd that my dad had was basically Herefords and then we, I always liked the Angus breed and started accumulating some Angus females. And actually at the time, you could buy some pretty good Angus cattle that had some growth, had some frame worth the money because everybody wanted these little dumpy ones, and that's what was bringing the premium. So you could buy some decent cattle. And I didn't have a lot of money to spend on them, but I did pick up some females here and there and kind of got started. And I guess what really got me going was that I was looking around trying to find a good bull because this was in ´69, so the trend already began to move, we were starting to get a little more frame, a little more growth, cattle a little more useful, and I was a little more excited about the Angus breed.

And I found a bull out in Hastings, Nebraska, that I liked a lot and went out there and tried to buy him and didn't have enough money, but fellow by the name of Jim Baldridge bought him. And I got to talking to Jim afterwards, and he just bought him to speculate on, but it's more money than I could afford. But anyway, I ended up trading some females that I had for this bull and brought him back and he was pretty good. I mean, we won the Illinois Preview Show with him, which was a big deal back then. There would be 250-300 head there, and then he won the Illinois State Fair. He won the Indiana State Fair. He won the Tulsa State Fair, and he won his class at the International, and I sold him for a lot of money back then. And that's really how I kind of got going.

Miranda Reiman:
What bull was that?

Gary Dameron:
MQ Mr. Marshall 231.

Miranda Reiman:
Mark. Do you know that one or are you going to have to go look it up?

Mark McCully:
Was that Quirks?
Gary Dameron:
Yeah. Yeah. MQ was Morrison & Quirk. Morrison & Quirk had sold the entire herd to S&W in XX, Nebraska. S&W was Sheldon Work, who was a lumber person, but he bought the herd and he dispersed the first part of them there in those flat grain storage in Hastings, Nebraska, where the moisture grain elevator is? That is where they had the auction. So that had been in the spring of 1969. 

Mark McCully:
Very good. Yeah, ´69, I think that's the year Conoco won the Chicago International.

Gary Dameron:
First crossbred steer. Yeah. So the thing was starting to change.

Mark McCully:
So talk about, I mean, you're sitting in arguably some of the best black dirt corn ground in the world where you're at. Gary, talk about how maybe the cattle business has changed there in your area and Illinois, I guess as a general rule.

Gary Dameron:
Well, it's changed immensely. I mean, when I was a kid, I mean it was all ear corn, cribs were filled. Just everybody that farmed fed cattle, may have had some hogs in there with the cattle. A lot of them would've ground ear corn and fed it, which is the best feed in the world for fattening cattle. Everybody in the world did that. But today, there's nobody around feeding cattle to amount to anything in this area. And obviously there's no corn cribs left either. It's all combines and shelled corn. But that's the era I grew up in, corn picker and grinding ear corn to feed cattle. These guys would shell this corn out in the wintertime or spring. And so I'd have a big truck that I hauled cobs with. So we used cobs for bedding and you'd go and follow a sheller around, and that's what it was all about.

Miranda Reiman:
I bet you don't miss some of that, do you?

Gary Dameron:
Oh, I don't miss some of the work. I mean, it was a lot of work.

Mark McCully:
Now you sit in your autonomous tractors and combines and just remote control it in.

Gary Dameron:
Yeah. Lucky they've got these beepers that wake you at the end of the field so you don't drive through the fence at the end.

Mark McCully:
So Gary, as you think back on some of the history of some of the bulls you've owned and cattle you've been a part of, we're here on a Zoom call and I see a First Class picture behind you, one of the more famous bulls I would say, and influential bulls you've been a part of. Would he be one of your favorites? Are there others that you would say were kind of turning points in your program?
Gary Dameron:
No, he'd be one of my favorites. I mean, I keep a picture of Line Drive in the house, and I really enjoy showing that to judging teams when they come by. He would've been International Champion in Denver in ´89, and Jan Lyons's daughter, Amy, was the queen that year. And Amy's a pretty tall girl. She's about as tall as I am and she's standing behind this bull when he won Denver, and she's got a cowboy hat on that's six inches above the top of her head. And the bull's still a foot above that. So I mean, people see that picture. They can't believe it. But that's the mess we got ourselves into by just chasing this frame deal forever.
Mark McCully:
So I got to ask, at that time, I mean, you grew up with a commercial cattle background. Did you know we were pushing the limits and where we should be, but that was the market, or what was your mindset at that point?
Gary Dameron:
No, I knew this was ridiculous. I mean, that's what you had to have to sell cattle and you didn't need to judge. You just measure all of it. And that's the way it was. It was ridiculous. But finally we realized where we were and where we needed to be, and I think that's where we are today.
Miranda Reiman:
So do you think that the disparity maybe, I mean, some people talk about trying to breed cattle for the show ring versus breeding cattle for production. Do you think that that has gotten less over the years or that that's gotten wider over the years?
Gary Dameron:
Oh, I think it's gotten wider, but I don't think it should be wider. I think we need to get on the same page with this stuff. But the thing is you realize, I mean, the number of cattle that bring the most money today are the best cattle phenotypically. So yeah, we need to get the thing closer together.
Mark McCully:
Maybe talk a little about your program today. We kind of skipped to fast forward to where you are today. You talked about your kids being involved, your grandson just went off the junior board as chairman, granddaughter just got elected to the junior board. So there's another generation of Damerons that are absolutely involved and already leaders. Talk about a little bit about what you guys are doing today, kind of what is your breeding program focus and what your marketing program is.
Gary Dameron:
Well, we run close to 200 cows. About half of them are purebred Angus cows and about half of them are receipts. We’ll have a fall sale the Saturday after Thanksgiving that'll focus to a large extent on show heifer calves. But we're selling quite a few bred heifers in there too. And that thing has continued to gain a little momentum and grow, and we'll probably have more breds to sell this fall than we've ever had. And then in the past, we've had several online sales. In the spring, we had one for bulls, we had one for summer-born heifers, we had one for fall-born heifers. And then this past year we just put those all together and I think we'll probably continue to do that and just have a regular auction in the spring.
Miranda Reiman:
Did I see that you just had your 40th annual on-farm sale last fall?
Gary Dameron:
Something like that. Yeah.
Miranda Reiman:
Yeah, that's a lot of years. That's nice. Are we melting you at this point? If you want to turn on your air conditioning, you can.
Gary Dameron:
No, I’m fine.
Mark McCully:
In our initial sound checks, we were picking up a little air conditioning fan in the background, and it's only like a 100 degrees in Illinois today, and Gary agreed to take the air conditioner down. So, thank you.
Miranda Reiman:
As a nod to ‘how tough things used to be,’ we'll just give you a good reminder of that too. Talk a little bit about, you talk about your family involvement, and you've got grandkids that have been showing and things like that. What's it like to see that next generation come up through the junior program?
Gary Dameron:
Oh, it's great. Like I mentioned earlier, the people in the Angus breed have meant the world to me and this entire family, and I'm really proud of these kids as they grow up and get involved in junior activities that, I mean, I think our junior program and what it has to offer is second to none, and I'm thrilled to death that they're involved. Maybe I should state this. I mean, I think the reason that the Angus people means so much to me is because of what happened about 40 years ago. In 1983, the week before the National Junior Show, my wife died suddenly and Angus people loaded up these kids and took them to the National Junior Show in Des Moines, Iowa, the next week. And I guess I feel like I've been indebted to Angus people ever since. And it is been a neat thing. It really has. And I think the support group that this group is is overlooked, I don't think people realize how important they can be. And I can tell you firsthand how important they've been to this family.
Miranda Reiman:
Nobody wants a tragedy, but that is definitely one thing that brings out, highlights that in support. And you've given back, we've got lots of examples of you donating back to the Angus Foundation and being a good support person there too. So, I guess, thank you for all that support. I'll give you that thank you on behalf of the kids. I know they'd say it if they were here too.
Mark McCully:
No, I appreciate that reminder. And I think we do get really excited about the cattle and we get excited about whether you're into the data, whether you're into the shows, whether you're into whatever part of the cattle business you're into. But I think that reminder that this is still a people business and there are those times where you get reminded of that and how important that is. And so yeah, I think a great perspective. Most definitely.
Miranda Reiman:
We'll take a brief time out as we thank our sponsors for their support of this show. Mark your calendar for a major Vernon County, Wisconsin, land auction Thursday, September 19th, at 10 AM. People's Company will represent Woodhill Farms as they sell 818 acres of prime pasture, tillable, and recreation land and 14 tracks. The land is well suited to support a premium cow herd and row crop operation, and also includes timberland and building sites. Each tract will sell absolute with no reserve. Visit Peoplescompany.com to learn more. And now let's pick up where we left off.
Mark McCully:
How do we continue as, I guess this is more of a philosophical question. I've always said one of the roles of the association is to help foster that and bring people together. And I think there's a lot of folks that are a part of this association. I mean, one of maybe the biggest things they get out of their association, whether it's the American Angus Association or a state association, is that fellowship. And I think we have that at Convention. We have that when we come together at junior shows. Have there been things that have been done in the past or that we've lost, or are there things we need to be doing in the future that we can help foster some of that?
Gary Dameron:
I don't think we've lost much. I mean, I think you go to the National Junior Show, for example. I think you'll talk to a lot of people there that'll tell you the best friends they have, period, are there. And I don't know that we've lost a great deal. I mean, I think one thing that we need to probably look at at the National Junior Show is that we've probably done too good a job of selling these heifers, and we've got these cattle priced to the point that I think we're running some people off. And we probably need to figure out some way to encourage people to participate even if they've only got a limited budget to work with. And I don't know just what that is. Well, for example, I talked to Jack Ward recently and he's sold on having showmanship classes of all ages, thinks that helps less expensive heifers find new homes in the membership. I don't know if that's right or not, but it's probably something we maybe need to look at. I hate to see people that have shown Angus heifers for three or four years and suddenly showing a Maine-Anjou.
Mark McCully:
No, I was going to ask you that. You've seen the show ring change from one where the open show was the show, you almost didn't even know who won the junior show to today. I mean, obviously the junior heifers, the junior owned heifers, are quite prominent and many times will be the open show winners. We don't see the breeders bringing the big strings like once was the case. But to your point, the junior projects have then become, the economy around them is pretty enormous. I think it's one of the reasons we've gotten excited about the Phenotype and Genotype show, the PGS, another opportunity for folks to get involved. And again, but we also know anytime, we're good red-blooded Americans, when there's a competition involved and there's winners, we get competitive. And so I think your warning is a good one, and I think it's one we need to take serious consideration around how we make sure we don't lose the kids that we want involved in our breed because maybe the budget or whatever can't support their involvement.
Gary Dameron:
I don't know what else we do. Maybe we cap these classes at maybe 10, maybe we cap the number of classes in a division at three or four. All that does is enable six or eight more or 10 or 12 maybe more kids to come home with a banner. Does that help? I don't know, but I think we need to give some thought to it at least.
Mark McCully:
Yep.
Miranda Reiman:
Does that change your marketing at all or how you are kind of helping young people get into the business or kind of watching out for some of those kids?
Gary Dameron:
I mean we've sold some pretty inexpensive heifers that have done pretty well. And I mean I can sure point that out to prospective buyers, but you still got this certain element that is an opinion that they can't afford to show a competitive Angus and they're showing something else. And that's what we got to try to figure out a way to address.
Miranda Reiman:
Well, I would say if there's any parents listening to this podcast too, or thinking about the National Junior Angus Show and kind of wonder, they should go back and listen to our previous three podcasts we did live from National Junior Angus Show. And we had kids involved at all levels, people who'd invested a lot of money, but also people who'd invested just a lot of time and, really, I think give a good inspiration for all the different ways they can be involved, even if it isn't with that grand champion winner too.
Gary Dameron:
Yeah, no, I know we've got all sorts of programs that can be involved. I think that's great. But I'm not on a soapbox saying what we need to do. What I'm saying is I think we need to look into some possibilities that might give us a little better market for these less expensive heifers.
Miranda Reiman:
Yeah, for sure.
Mark McCully:
Good discussion. I think one that the board and committees have looked at and staff. I think one of the things we're always balancing, we also hear from folks that it's expensive to be at these shows and can we take a day out of the shows and at the same time we're trying to look at things we could potentially add. So it's a balancing act, right, that I know we'll continue to look at and find ways that we can, where there's a will, there's a way, right? So I think the goal, as you said, is to make sure we've got young people that want to be involved in the breed, we make sure there's a place for them to get plugged in and not feel like … I always use my personal example. I mean, I say we were Freddy 4-H’ers, right? But we could work towards something and with the idea of by the time, you know, you buy a three in one when you get started and you start breeding your own, and may be semi-competitive by the time you got to a senior. And I think we still need to make sure that opportunity exists as best we can.
Gary, as you looked on the horizon, I guess maybe some of the things that may be just as the breed in general, things we need to be thinking about, things you're excited about. This is an opportunity. Here's the soapbox if you want one.
Gary Dameron:
No, I don't want a soapbox. I mean, I think one of the big problems we have in the future is, I mean, we've got all sorts of young people with all sorts of talent that want to be involved in the future. The problem is, can we do anything to facilitate that? The problem is how can they do it financially? And I don't know what the answer is, but I mean, you look at the price of feeder calves, I mean, I don't know how we expand this cow herd right now. Because of the price of feeder calves, these guys can't afford to keep these heifer calves around and make breds out of them when they're bringing 2,500 bucks a round off the cow. And this is kind of where we are. So I guess this does tie into what I'm saying, that I don't know if there's any programs that we can get involved in to better enable some of these young people to get involved or not, but I would sure like to look into it.
Mark McCully:
Yeah. Gary, I'd be curious. Were you having, I mean, at the time you were on the board, that was not a prosperous time in the farm economy. As someone that was coming out of high school during those times, that was a time when dads were telling their kids to get off the farm. Were those discussions being had in the boardroom at that point, or was it kind of a foregone conclusion that this industry was going to change? Because in my recollection of that time, at the stage of life I was in, there was not a lot of optimism around agriculture. But maybe that was a jaded view that just came out of my household. I don't know.
Gary Dameron:
No, no, no. It was pretty bad. I mean, you were looking at 20% interest rates. I've got a printout in there from Federal Land Bank, and I don't remember what year it was. I think it was ´69. Well, I'm not sure what year it was, but all sorts of their loans were over 20% in interest. And boy, you plugged that in and tried to make it fly — pretty tough. Yeah, I think everybody when I was on the board was concerned about their own financial situation, but we were really concerned about the American Angus Association's financial situation, which was evident in every decision we made, really. That's what it was all about. I mean, we were trying to keep the doors open. I mean, I remember Chuck talking about the time that Dick called him in and called the staff in and said, ‘Boys, we're down to 150,000 registrations. What are we going to do when we get to 120?’ And they darn near got there before it turned around.
Miranda Reiman:
And yet when it came to your own kids, you encouraged them to stay involved. And they're obviously in rural America and involved at different levels. So what did you do differently to encourage your kids to stay?
Gary Dameron:
Well, I don't know if I did anything. I think they like this life. I mean, several of these kids have got other forms of income, which helps a lot. But I think they like the idea of raising a family the way they were raised, and I think it's great that they're all, like I said, within a few miles of here.
Mark McCully:
So I am curious, how are breeding decisions made at Dameron Angus Farms? Is Gary the ultimate dictator and final say? Is it democratic process?
Gary Dameron:
Oh, it's about as democratic as it gets around here. No, we kind of work together on it.
Mark McCully:
Sure.
Gary Dameron:
We're trying to raise some cattle with numbers and we're trying to raise some cattle that'll be competitive in the show ring too. And there's not a lot of options when you get around right down do it. If we're trying to raise some performance cattle, we insist on having some phenotype along with it, and there's not a lot of bulls that'll do that.
Miranda Reiman:
So when you were first kind of trying to build your herd, you were seeing a lot of these cattle either in person at shows or hearing word of mouth. How has that changed like how you're finding the next thing you're going to use?
Gary Dameron:
Yeah, I think at the time, I mean when I was starting out, I mean the show ring was everything. And if you had a, I mean, I can't believe how much semen was sold on some of those bulls that won Chicago or won Denver and so forth. That was it. That was the only determining factor determining the value of that semen. And you could sell unlimited amounts of that semen. But today, I don't think a bull that wins a show, if you like that bull, you might try a little bit, but there's nobody that's going to stake their whole calf crop on that bull. And to be perfectly honest, in many cases you're better off if you don't show them. I think people are a lot more concerned about the progeny that they see by that bull than what that bull looks like.
Miranda Reiman:
So in some ways you say there's not that many choices, but really there's almost more choices because you have the ability to…
Gary Dameron:
There’s lots of choices, but I'm talking about choices that fit our program for numbered cattle, cattle that should work number-wise and should work phenotypically. I don't think people are as concerned about inbreeding as they used to be. I think today for the show ring, I think there's a lot more line breeding than people ever thought was possible. And we've done probably as much of that as anybody, but we've really never had any problems by doing it. So, I mean, we're using First Class on First Class relatives, First Class sons on First Class daughters, and we've got on pretty good doing that.
Mark McCully:
How much more First Class semen do you have?
Gary Dameron:
Not much. We're pretty much out, but we've got enough descendants that we can still use that bloodline quite a bit.
Mark McCully:
Largely using sex semen?
Gary Dameron:
No, most of this is … he was never sorted, for example, a lot of these bulls aren't sorted. So, I mean, we're doing IVF reverse sort.
Mark McCully:
Yeah.
Miranda Reiman:
So that's a lot different than what you were doing probably when you first started.
Gary Dameron:
Oh yeah, yeah, a lot.
Miranda Reiman:
So we are ahead of the Illinois State Fair. What's the climate like at Dameron Angus Farm ahead of a big show like that?
Gary Dameron:
We probably, I don't know if we'll take any cattle from here down there. We'll have a half a dozen heifers that we've sold that will go down and work on and support. We try to avoid showing against these customers as much as we can. So that's one thing we do. The junior show at the Illinois State Fair is a big, big deal. The problem at the Illinois State Fair is the open show. It's three or four days after the junior show, and most people go home or a lot of people — they've been down there since Monday. They show heifers on Friday. They really don't want to stay until the middle of the next week. So a lot of those people will go home on Friday. And that's consequently, our numbers have dropped from being one of the bigger state fairs in the country to 60 head, and we'll have probably three times that in the junior show, or at least twice.
Miranda Reiman:
I really expected your answer to be that it was a little more hectic than it is. It sounds like stress-free. Just go down and enjoy the fair and cheer your people on.
Mark McCully:
You'll be out on the midway eating elephant ears and…
Gary Dameron:
Yeah, I got one grandson that has some pigs, too, that he's going to take down there, so he likes to mess around with them. So that'll be fine.
Miranda Reiman:
That's an easy way to not show against your customers, I guess. Just go with a different species.
Mark McCully:
In a different barn.
Gary Dameron:
Yeah. Yep.
Miranda Reiman:
We really appreciate you being on here. We always end with a random question of the week, and Mark never knows the random question of the week, and yet he almost preempted mine because my thoughts were, you're headed to the Illinois State Fair. I want to know what's the state fair food you can't leave the state fair without? What's your have-to-have at the Illinois State Fair?
Gary Dameron:
Probably junior show milkshakes.
Miranda Reiman:
Oh, I like it. Mark, do you have one?
Mark McCully:
Those are pretty good. I'm actually going to be at the Illinois State Fair this year.
Gary Dameron:
That's what I heard. What's prompting all this?
Mark McCully:
Well, my Illinois brethren that I want to get back and see. Truth be told, I'm actually in a charity steer show, the Governor's Charity Steer Show in Iowa, and I figured being that close, then I can pop on over to Illinois and be there for the Angus Show. I just haven't been there in a few years.
Miranda Reiman:
So, you are judging this steer show or you're participating…
Mark McCully:
No, I’m showing. I’m showing an Angus steer.
Miranda Reiman:
Do you even remember how to do that? Do we need to give you a little…
Mark McCully:
I hope it's not going to be super competitive and I'll have the family, Cheyenne Hogue, she'll be the expert out there. I'm the “celebrity” and I'm using quotes for those that can't see that, so yeah. Yeah.
Miranda Reiman:
And for those that don't, yeah, go ahead.
Gary Dameron:
That's a big deal over there. Yeah, maybe there should be an entourage going over there to check this out. So, when do you show?
Mark McCully:
I'm glad this episode is going to drop after the Iowa State Fair, so there’s not heckler's in the crowd that show up just for that.
Gary Dameron:
So what day is this show?
Mark McCully:
I believe it’s the Saturday. So the 10th if I've got my dates right. 
Miranda Reiman:
Maybe we'll have to post some photos along with…
Mark McCully:
Yeah. And it is a great cause. They raise a lot of money for the Ronald McDonald House, so it's a great cause and I think it’ll be fun. They tell me it's fun. That's what they've sold me, that it's fun. So I will come to Illinois and also have a milkshake, I think, maybe two. So I will get to experience two state fairs in fair food. Miranda, what are some of your favorites?
Miranda Reiman:
Fair food in general. There's probably not anything that I don't like, but I will say…
Mark McCully:
Deep-fried Snickers bars?
Miranda Reiman:
Well, okay, maybe that one I don't, Snickers bars are great on their own. You don't have to deep-fry them.

Mark McCully:
I agree.

Miranda Reiman:
However, at the Minnesota State Fair, which is of course my home state fair, one of the places you have to stop is for Martha's Cookies. They're chocolate chip cookies, that's all they sell at this place. You get a whole bucket of cookies, and then you go over to the dairy producers stand, and you can get milk. Now, I don't know if they've upped the price, but it used to be for 25 cents a glass, so you can't go wrong. Warm chocolate chip cookies. Nice cold white milk.
Mark McCully:
Perfect.
Miranda Reiman:
Well, Gary, we have kept you long enough, so we want to just thank you for, thank you for being on and for joining the podcast today.
Mark McCully:
We really appreciate it. And thank you for enduring the un-air-conditioned office. You haven't even broken into a sweat, so it must not be too terrible in there, but really do appreciate it. Always enjoy our…

Gary Dameron:
I'll remember this though.

Mark McCully:
Oh, fair enough. This is payback for you selling this as the easy job. But no, truly appreciate you and your family, your legacy of leadership, and we're excited now with Anne on the board, just seeing that next generation flourish, and I'm sure that's got to be pretty fun for you to watch as well.

Gary Dameron:
Oh, it is. It's great.

Mark McCully:
We appreciate it. Thanks for joining us here tonight.
Miranda Reiman:
Thanks for joining us on the first episode of season five. If you're wondering how that celebrity showmanship turned out, I am happy to report that Mark still has it. And with the help of Cheyenne and her steer, The Business, Mark was selected the champion in that show where all the proceeds go to the Ronald McDonald Houses in Iowa.

As the season starts off, I just want to say that we're so grateful for you and our growing network of listeners. We really enjoy that feedback, so just keep it coming. You can head on over to our new and improved angusjournal.net to read even more of the latest stories, find past podcasts, or contact us to submit ideas and suggestions. While you're at it, check out the expanded resources for you on the newly redesigned and reorganized angus.org. And when I say we want to hear from you, I really mean it. Thanks for listening to the podcast today, and we'll be back in two weeks with another episode. This has been The Angus Conversation, an Angus Journal podcast.