EPISODE NAME:  Community of Hope: Herbst, Carson on How the Angus Family Brings Blessings to Disaster 

Wildfires, floods, hurricanes, tornados – when natural disasters hit cattle country, it hurts. Lives and livelihoods are changed, sometimes in mere seconds. Today’s guests, Callie Carson of Laurel Springs, N.C., and Steve Herbst, Salmon, Idaho, talk about the hope that exists in those spaces. From everybody saddling up horses to evacuate ahead of a fire to the donations that poured in after Hurricane Helene, this episode covers some of the similar threads in stories across the United States. It also touches on everything from practical preparations to mental health implications. This conversation will leave you with plenty to think about, whether you’ve experienced disaster, been there to help, or sent cash and prayers across the miles.  

HOSTS: Miranda Reiman and Mark McCully  

GUESTS: Callie Carson and Steve Herbst 

Callie Carson of Laurel Springs, N.C., and her husband raise Angus cattle on a forage-based operation in northwest North Carolina. She also works as a field representative for the North Carolina Farm Bureau Federation. She is currently serving her second term as president of the North Carolina Angus Association, and, in addition to experiencing the effects on their own farm, has been actively involved in Hurricane Helene Relief efforts.  

Steve Herbst operates Nelson Angus Ranch with his family near Salmon, Idaho.   His father-in-law, Clyde Nelson, started the registered Angus herd, and they’ve had annual sales every year since 1966. They were early adopters of genomics and have extensive experience in PAP testing. Herbst is known as a leader in the region and often serves as a voting delegate for the American Angus Association annual meeting. 

Miranda Reiman (00:02):
Welcome to the Angus Conversation. I'm your host, Miranda Reiman, and today I have a guest co-host in Kara Lee. Hey Kara, how are you?
Kara Lee (00:09):
I'm great, Miranda. How are you?
Miranda Reiman (00:11):
Good. Kara serves as the director of producer engagement for Certified Angus Beef Brand and also has some firsthand experience for our podcast today. We are going to be visiting a little bit about natural disasters in the Angus community. And Kara, I guess you kind of got a front row seat to that.
Kara Lee (00:29):
I did, and thankfully not from a personal perspective I guess, but I actually flew into Asheville, North Carolina, on the last Thursday of September with the intent of being there for an educational program in conjunction with Biltmore Estate's annual bull sale that Saturday. And the very next day was when all of the storms came in that no one was really predicting for anything more than just some thunderstorms. And
Miranda Reiman (00:53):
Hurricane Helene changed all your plans.
Kara Lee (00:55):
She did. She did. Mother Nature can be a surly broad, and Hurricane Helene was an evil stepdaughter at that point. She brought lots of rain, lots of water. I had a Biltmore experience unlike any other. Unfortunately, for those folks, I ended up having to postpone that sale and make do, but at the end of the day, I look back at what I experienced was nothing more than a mild inconvenience. I was stuck away from home without some power and water for a couple of days. But when I was able to get out and you see what the good folks of Western North Carolina had endured, it's hard to put into words. When I was able to get back to cell phone service and see some of the news, it was nothing short of a miracle that I got home when I did and was just very humbling to follow some of the story afterwards to see the way that communities and even those in rural America came together to try and support those folks who were enduring those circumstances afterwards.
Miranda Reiman (01:53):
When we talk about the rural communities pulling together, Certified Angus Beef actually has a way that people can support when we know there's others in our community in times of need. You want to talk about that just a little bit?
Kara Lee (02:05):
Sure. Yeah, we do have an outlet for that. And in 2019, Certified Angus Beef started our Rural Relief Fund as a way to collect funds, especially from partners. We have brand partners that they hear about things that happen in rural America and they want to help. They say, how can we help? How can we give back to ranchers, farmers in times of need? And that was really the why behind the Rural Relief Fund. Over the last five years, we've distributed funds to rural communities all across the country in times of need. And here, most recently, we've distributed funds across several states in the Southeast for hurricane relief funds and even earlier this fall across parts of the West during wildfire season. So, you're never able to do enough. Nobody's ever in a position to be able to do as much as you want to, but we're in a position to be able to do something. And so that's what we do. We do something. And in many ways, it's just a way to also bring awareness to some of those situations, right? And continue to make that connection between the producer and the end user and realize just how much care and love and effort goes into high quality beef.
Miranda Reiman (03:13):
I think I was at a CAB annual conference where Mark Gardiner shared his story about the wildfires in Kansas, and just to see the amount of outpouring from those folks on the other side of the business, you realize that, I mean, we're all humans, we all care.
Kara Lee (03:27):
Oh, absolutely. It humanizes our supply chain so much. When you're talking about chefs or retailers, they get a box of beef, boxes of beef that come into the back of their cooler, the back of their warehouse. And the people who have the opportunity to hear those stories meet the ranchers who have endured those things like — this is a life's work. This is empathy and people and emotion that goes into raising Certified Angus Beef. And for many of our brand partners, it makes them that much more connected to our brand, connected to our brand story to see that.
Miranda Reiman (04:02):
On today's podcast, we have two folks who have endured different kinds of hardship and have really seen it from a bird's eye view with their customers and people in their regions. I will let you get to know them in the podcast, but I guess, Kara, I would say that this is an episode that is going to ring true either if you've experienced something like this or if you've simply just been a bystander hearing the news.
Kara Lee (04:24):
Yeah, sometimes producers have almost, we call it survivor's guilt, where you're so far away from it and you feel bad because you came out unscathed. I honestly felt a little bit that way myself when I was able to get out of Asheville and I got home late, big whoop, I came home to my family, to my house that was still there, to a yard that I was complaining because it hadn't been rained on in over a month and we were having to run water for cows a little bit more than we typically would, when I just left places where there were roads that were gone and farms that didn't exist anymore — livelihoods, and in some cases lives. For the listeners who are in that situation where you weren't there, hopefully it's a connection and helps you build some empathy for those folks, and even I think you'll hear their appreciation for the folks who weren't impacted, but they see their role in these circumstances as just a way to step up and help your fellow man.
Miranda Reiman (05:19):
Well, I think this is going to be an episode that kind of tugs at the heartstrings.
Kara Lee (05:23):
Without a doubt today.
Miranda Reiman (05:29):
On the podcast, we have some guests who are no doubt going to talk about something that has probably touched every producer at some point in their lives but is not something that we hope to have to talk about in our lifetime. And that's what happens when natural disaster strikes the ranch. Today we have two guests from about as opposite of the corners of the United States as you could get. Callie Carson over in North Carolina, and Steve Herbst up in the Northwest. Callie, I'll let you introduce yourself, but longtime involvement in the National Junior Angus Program, BLI participant, just very steeped in the Angus world.
Callie Carson (06:07):
Yes, ma'am. Participated in Junior Angus events, won the outstanding leadership award in 2003, grew up in our state association, participated with the auxiliary. I think I'm the first member that had a hat trick. I've been the president of our junior association, our state auxiliary, and I'm currently serving my second term as our North Carolina Angus Association President. Got to participate in BLI this past year, so Angus as a breeder, as a member, as an enthusiast has been a big part of my life for well over 20 years.
Miranda Reiman (06:44):
Excellent. And then you also, in addition to running cattle today, you are also involved in agriculture?
Callie Carson (06:51):
Yes, ma'am. I've been with North Carolina Farm Bureau for almost 14 years. I'm a field rep in the northwestern portion of the state, so my region borders Tennessee and Virginia, we are in that pocket, and then goes down to the northwest central part of the state. So, I work with farmers, anything from traditional row crops to Christmas trees. I've got a sturgeon farmer that raises caviar, so that's pretty neat. Cabbages, pumpkins, so very diversified in terms of geography, elevation, crops. I work with our state farm safety and young farmers and ranchers program.
Miranda Reiman (07:28):
Excellent. We don't have a lot of caviar operations in Nebraska, so we might sidebar on that later.
Callie Carson (07:33):
They don't do a lot of samples.
Miranda Reiman (07:36):
Well, we look forward to having your input, of course. When we say natural disasters in the Angus business in North Carolina, everyone knows we're talking about the most recent events there with the hurricane. So, we'll get to talking to you about that a little bit more here. But want to introduce our second guest and Steve Herbst from Nelson Angus up there at Salmon, Idaho. Steve, you want to tell us just a little bit about your background in the Angus business?
Steve Herbst (08:00):
Well, thank you. My name is Steve Herbst, and like she said, I own Nelson Angus Ranch. It's located in Salmon, Idaho, and that's in the middle of the Rocky Mountains. And so, some of the challenges that we have are totally different. We don't know what hurricanes are and flooding is, but we know what fires are and what the forest and the timber industry, when they catch on fire, how fast they can deoxygenate the environment and what smoke can cause, and also how the impact that it has on wildlife in the area and some of their reactions and the impact that it has on the beef production. Our area is mainly comprised of cow-calf producers and all of the calves that are produced in our area and our region are shipped to a lower elevation place where they're fed and enter the foodchain that way.
Miranda Reiman (08:56):
Sure. Why don't you talk a little bit about your family operation there and your background story just so we can get to know you a little bit more?
Steve Herbst (09:05):
Sure. The seedstock operation that I run started in 1958 with its first seedstock, and to my knowledge, all of our ancestors have been in agriculture since Adam and Eve, so we don't really know anything other than just production agriculture. And we market seedstock bulls. We're in an area where we're fortunate enough to own a piece of land that's high in elevation, and so we're able to PAP test bulls and we've generated a lot of awareness in the commercial sector in our area to the producers. Before, they just knew that they were losing calves and cows but now that we've exposed them to the issue, they all can make really good decisions. And the reality is now that they're very educated on the issue; they come and they say that very first selection criteria that we make in our breeding stock is a PAP test, and they actually tell me if it's high, we keep looking. If it's a good test, then we'll consider it. And so that's been one of the challenges. Or I guess one of the things — accomplishments — I guess, is the education with technology and information the way it is in the world today. So that's really a good thing.
Miranda Reiman (10:31):
Sure. Well, thank you guys both for joining us. I think one thing that you'll really provide is that you've got touch points with producers across your region, so being able to talk about it as sort of a more regional look at some of these natural disasters and the things that you guys deal with. Maybe Steve, we'll just start with you. Just tell us a little bit about the impacts of wildfires in your area. What have you guys been experiencing out in the Northwest?
Steve Herbst (10:57):
Well, one of the unique things about the county that we live in is it's 92% federally owned, 8% private land. And so the taxable land base is fairly small compared to other counties in the region and across the country, given that 92% federally-owned land. A lot of that is steep terrain that has trees on it. And the valley floors are at 4,000 feet and they'll go up as high as 12,000 feet. And a lot of the commercial cattle are grazed on these allotments. And what happens is they get spread out quite thin. I know one allotment that's on 400,000 acres, and when you try to ride that in a day just to control cattle, that's a feat in itself. So, some of these mountain slopes are heavily timbered and the forest service comes in and they've got it all mapped out and kind of a science to this firefighting. But there are some fires.
Callie Carson (12:58):
So, what would that do for the animals that are outside that can't have air filters? What does that do to the lungs or longevity of calves that have scar tissue? Is that an issue?
Steve Herbst (13:11):
I really haven't heard of any issues from the animals. The one thing that it does do is there have been cows and cattle that have actually escaped, but some of them escape fine and others escape with burn spots on them. And the other thing it does do is it creates, it makes the wildlife run. And when I say that, there's just a natural instinct in those, the bear and the elk and the deer and other wildlife, and they basically run from it. And sometimes the fire will actually surround them and there's no place to run to eventually. And so it does create a lot of chaos in those local ecosystems as well.
Kara Lee (13:55):
Steve, you mentioned the firefighters and the forest service. I know in a lot of rural mountain communities you'll see a lot of your local ranchers become the heart and soul of some of your first responders and firefighters. Is that something you all see in your community, folks who are trying to take care of fire relief maybe at home, maybe moving some of their own cows while still trying to be a part of local fire relief?
Steve Herbst (14:20):
Yeah, our area does have voluntary firefighting, but the federal land, they don't really fight fires there. The federal government comes in. But one of the greatest things about Americans is in times of need, they all step up. And we've seen that firsthand in some of these fire situations that have been in our area. You might run a different breed of cows than I do but, really, when times get tough, you saddle your horse, you bring your four employees, we all meet together at the bottom of the creek drainage and we scatter and we all work together and, collectively, we try to help our neighbor be successful. And we're looking out for the neighbor's cattle as though they were our own. And one of the really neat things about that is I may have had some feelings towards my neighbor yesterday, but tomorrow all of those feelings have been washed away.
Callie Carson (16:18):
I don't have to tell you guys that this was an election year. I mean, that's something that we're all very aware of and nobody shows up after a disaster and says, can I see your election card? They don't ask what party you're affiliated with or what your politics are. They show up and they say, how can I help? Where can I go? How many people? And they show up with a hug and supplies. They don't show up with politics, they show up with people, and that's what we're there for. We're not R’s or D's in the middle of a disaster. We're all P’s, we're all people.
Kara Lee (16:56):
Oh, you're absolutely right. And Callie, I know what you guys have seen in North Carolina recently with the storms from Hurricane Helene that came through. I know you guys were a little way away from direct damage, but you were right in the middle of coordinating some of the exact scenarios like what Steve mentioned in terms of folks jumping in to help their neighbor even if their neighbor's 150 miles away. Can you tell us a little bit about the experience that you saw, some of the examples and how folks in rural communities and cattle producers have come together over the last six or eight weeks?
Callie Carson (17:29):
So two days after the event, we were trying to clean up our own farm. I mean, there's trees down, there's cattle missing, and you're just trying, right? You're overwhelmed. I mean, there's a point after a disaster where you look around and say, I need to help other people, but I've got to, and the phone's ringing off the hook with people that want to come help. And there was a group of gentlemen that, when I say they lived at the beach, you have to cross a bridge to get to the island that they live on, on the coast of North Carolina. And they wouldn't take no for an answer. They were going to come help. And they said, what do we need to bring? And I said, well, you're going to have to bring all of your own stuff. And they said, okay, we've got a trailer with living quarters. We’re self-contained, we just need a place to park.
Miranda Reiman (19:55):
So, if people are in that case wanting to do something to help and wanting to, do you have advice for people in any disaster situation? Not necessarily even specifically, but everybody kind of feels that right away after disaster, what can I do? Is it money? Is it labor? Is it supplies like hay? What is it that's most needed right away?
Callie Carson (20:20):
So, my experience coming out of this, there's been a lot of stuff that I don't know about wildfires. That's not something that we historically have, but I would imagine wildfire areas have a wildfire plan. The United States, we haven't been around for a thousand years, so how do you prepare for a thousand-year flood when our constitution is not even 300 years old? I mean, that's something that we've never been through. So, some things that we've learned are call ahead, have a point of contact, have a location, have a destination, and then talk with them. What are the supplies that you need? What can we do? How many people? Because there is a point in weeks after an event when the bleeding, the immediate bleeding has stopped, that the chaos has to be somewhat organized or it continues to be chaos and the needs shift, right? The immediate needs are going to be different than the needs three weeks after and six weeks after. And if you want to help, it's to let go of your personal assumptions and what you think folks need and be willing to shift and adjust and adapt to what the needs are locally.
Miranda Reiman (21:45):
When you've experienced the wildfire situations, did you have people just show up or was there coordinated efforts?
Steve Herbst (21:51):
Most of the efforts are fairly coordinated. As she was talking, I was reminded of a natural disaster that occurred in the late 1980s, and it was in Idaho at one of the higher points in a large valley. And what happened was it was called the Siberian Express, and it was a big blast of cold weather that came down out of Canada, and there was a rancher there in that particular area that lost about several hundred head of cows. And they found them later on that spring in the swirls of snow that had blown around and they were frozen. So, after the disaster and the assessment, then what they did is they called on, they said, we're going to accept cattle from all donors. And so, a lot of the local people in surrounding counties, they would each donate one or two cows or a bull or something.
Callie Carson (23:49):
And people in this event lost their homes. They lost fence, they lost everything. And one of the most devastating parts for us locally is the residents. So beyond just our agricultural community, only about 2% of the population had flood insurance. So that covers their home, their contents, their clothing. One thing that our farmers have really joined together with, and our local meat processors, I know six different local meat processors that have done food drives where people who bring pork, they bring beef, they bring lamb, can donate that meat, and it goes into feed these local communities because we had folks that were four weeks without power and now that power is being restored, there's a stock their freezers program. So, they're still doing community meals for the volunteers that are doing relief. But now we're helping stock refrigerators of people who are devastated so that when their power comes back on, they've got food.
Miranda Reiman (25:45):
You touched on it a little bit briefly, but talk about the impacts. We've talked about the people and the operations, but to the actual, to the livestock and what you've had to do and these situations to move livestock, to get 'em found and corralled and rounded up and those kind of things. What kind of an effort is that?
Steve Herbst (26:02):
Well, usually the need is greater than what the individual can provide by himself. So that's why the neighbors — they understand and know that — that's why they all come together. And anybody in our country that has a horse, and they might have spurs that they have a little seasoned wear on 'em, they're willing to go and help. And they don't talk about the compensation, that's irrelevant. They just go because they know that that's what their duty is. And it's pretty amazing to watch that. Usually at that point in time, it's our haystack, it's our trailer, it's our horses, it's our land, it's our corrals. It's a community collaborative effort. It really does. Everyone walks away feeling really good about it. And it doesn't matter whether it's a drought in Kansas and we see hay ship from the Northwest or food from Oregon. It's just the way America is, and that's one of the great attributes that makes America the greatest place on the globe to live.
Callie Carson (27:06):
Again, I don't have fire experience, but flood, fences just gone. Where did they go?
Callie Carson (27:16):
Yeah, they're just gone. And that's been, when you get phone calls from folks that say, I don't know if I have cows missing because I can't get them all in one place to count them. There's not enough fence left to count them or we can't separate them. We've got right weaned calves running with cows and heifers, and weaned heifers running with bulls. And that was where folks jumped in and they were bringing in fencing supplies and barbed wire and t-posts and what can you get and anything. We were at a point that anything was better than nothing to just make sure that people could contain their livestock. At the same time with flood in the immediate, a lot of folks wanting to drive in hay, we had hay barns that flooded, and the week after the hurricane, we had unseasonably high temperatures. So then these flooded barns were starting to heat, and that's insult on top of injury when your home is flooded, your fence is gone, and now you're at risk of your hay barn catching on fire because your flooded hay is starting to heat and where do you start? And that's where our volunteers, our other farmers, hey, what can I do? And when they roll up and I don't know, I don't know where to start, I've got to do my house. Okay, Samaritan's Purse Baptist On Mission was there to help with people's homes and we could get there to help clean out their bridges, clean out their barns, help rebuild fence, help cut trees off fence. And it was just amazing to see people drive from Georgia and Pennsylvania and Ohio with their own equipment to help do that. Like I said, for folks that they've never met, and odds are they probably won't again.
Kara Lee (29:09):
And I think today, especially with social media and news coverage, we're in a situation where ranchers can know more immediately about incidences that are going on across the country that if we were here 20 years ago, maybe you didn't know that your fellow Angus breeder halfway across the country was dealing with something so quickly. And we look all across the country and people have had one extreme or another from a flood to a drought to a fire, and folks seem so eager to want to jump in and help their fellow neighbor that proximity-wise maybe isn't your neighbor. But it's just such a great spirit of comradery among the agriculture and ranching community.
Callie Carson (29:53):
After a disaster. Like I said, things that you never knew that you would learn, at a certain point, funds, fundraising money can be more beneficial than supplies because local businesses are suffering too. And we try to tell our volunteers if they're somewhere, if you can stay at a local hotel, eat at a local restaurant, buy from a local business, because small communities are vibrant as long as all of the small businesses work together, right? Those local farmers would purchase from a local feed and supply store to get fence posts and supplies and gates. If we're bringing it in from all across the country, then our local economy, we're not building it back up when people already aren't shopping there because they can't afford to replace everything or maybe they can't get into town because…so, we had a group from Pennsylvania that that's what they did. They fundraised, they sent money, and we were able to purchase supplies from local feed-seed-farm supply dealers so that we're putting funds back into the local economy and we can grow from the ground up, not just the farmers, but the farm businesses that would be the sponsors at a local cattlemen's association or that would sponsor the county FFA to make sure that they're not suffering--they're hurting too. It’s everybody.
Kara Lee (31:22):
That's a great perspective that, I think unless you had been through it, you wouldn't necessarily think about. That's really a good idea.
Miranda Reiman (31:30):
And also, sometimes I think people think, oh, money's just a cop out. I'd like to go help, but I guess I'll just write a check. But to say that you maybe don't need cases of water, I know,
Callie Carson (31:40):
But most of the local farm supply, they get it. And so they're discounting supplies anyway. So I know of four different farm supply stores that are accepting funds, and they basically have a running account and if somebody needs something they can come in, get, they can use, like I said, we're putting money back. One of the most moving stories, this group from Pennsylvania that drove down did the fundraiser and a little boy showed up with a baggie with four nickels. He had 20 cents and he gave everything he had and they brought it in the little baggie.
Miranda Reiman (32:22):
You’re going to make us all cry here.
Callie Carson (32:24):
It was to say people get it. And when you say even children don't have to be taught to love their neighbor. That the innocence and purity of the people that want to help 20 cents, he gave everything.
Miranda Reiman (32:45):
That's a really cool story. So as we talk about natural disasters and you're talking about the really short-term impact, you're living it right now, you're right in that, but what's going to be the long-term impact? I mean, you're maybe a little bit further removed, but what's the long-term impact or how does that change your community?
Steve Herbst (33:06):
Well, the one thing that never goes away is when you have natural disasters you never forget how you felt when the widow gives her mites or the boy brings his four nickels in and just, I wished I had more I could give you more. You never forget that, and that's one of the good things that comes from it. The other thing that you do, though, is we all are smart enough to learn from history and sometimes the things that we learn have a lot of value too. There are a lot of really good, positive things. The other thing that it does do, though, is we have some people in our state, they actually have prescribed burns, and this is on terrain that's a little more mellow and flatter, and they tell me that in two years the feed is much greater than the feed supply that was there before. And so, fire is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it's a tool to help develop improvements for the long-term outlook. So, there are benefits to some of this.
Miranda Reiman (34:23):
Kara's nodding her head, she's down there, a Kansas producer, she knows all about using fire for…
Kara Lee (34:28):
Yes, the Flint Hills area, eastern Kansas the spring of the year, you can drive through at night and just watch the hills glow with the prescribed burns. And it's such a valuable tool when it can be used right when you're in a part of the country where you're not at high-fire risk, and looking at the nutritional value of what your grass looks like, and then even control obnoxious weeds potentially. Steve, I would be curious up in your area where it's so heavily wooded--had the opportunity on personal time to go up and see some of the national parks and you see areas you can look out across the woods and see what burned five years ago versus what burned 20 years ago versus what hasn't burned in recent history. Are those things that you guys ever have to take into consideration when you're thinking about where you move cows, or whether it's forest service leases or things like that in terms of do you look back and say, well, maybe that one, is it time for that area to burn because does a fire every 10 years reduce the risk of a catastrophic fire every 50 years? I am very much more ignorant to the wildfire scenario and ecosystem up in your part of the country. I'd be curious what your thoughts are on that.
Steve Herbst (35:43):
Yeah, that's a really good viewpoint and question to ask. There's an area just south of Yellowstone National Park, they call it Island Park, and there's a Highway 20 that runs through there, and as you drive through there, it's probably a high 80 miles of wooded area before you actually get into West Yellowstone, which is the West Gate into Yellowstone Park. But along the side of the road, they've got areas where they've harvested timber and they have it dated when it was harvested. You can see dates of 10 years, 20 years, 40 years. It's very interesting to see the different crop, the size of the trees in those different, tied to those different harvest dates. When I was in high school, I used to take my lunch break and go down and buy donuts and a soda for lunch. You remember those days. But one of my memories I have from that walking experience to the bakery is I used to see semi loads of dimensional lumber leave our town on the back of a semi and we'd see four or five within an hour.
Miranda Reiman (38:10):
Unknown, huh?
Steve Herbst (38:11):
Yeah, I don't know. It's pretty hard to connect the dots some days, right? But that's kind of the way the society has gone. I guess we're in a grassroots area and we live off the land and we're in production states, and we just feel like that there's been lots of room for improvement with regards to healthy management harvesting resources that are available to us. And essentially, they just cost us an expense. And when we hear how the national debt's gone up, sometimes it's hard to sympathize with that mentality when you see things on the ground. They're just happening in reverse of the way our founding forefathers developed the land and harvested resources. We, as cattlemen, we're just harvesting grass on federal land and basically turning that into a protein that enters the food chain. And essentially the lumber industry is just harvesting wood and putting that into homes. And I have people that say, well, we don't want to harvest lumber. We don't want to harvest lumber. But by the same token, when you ask them what keeps the rain off of their room at night, it's all lumber products. And so sometimes there's a little bit of a discrepancy in the way you think, but it's definitely proven that long-term harvesting plan does have a lot of benefits. And minimizing forest fires are one of those.
Callie Carson (39:42):
Miranda, you asked long-term what changes. And I think one of the biggest things, my family, traditionally, are not like huggy, touchy, feely people and mountain folks in these regions that were devastated are, it's a culture of its own. And you see people hugging, I love you, hug the people, right? Tell the people, even if you're not close by, what you mean or what they mean to you. Some of the things long-term that we're talking about or that might be an option are for the southeast region of the United States, a lot of farmers, 60 acres is a big farm. So, a lot of the soil and water or Extension offices will own and rent out seed drills or portable corrals. Would an inline hay wrapper or a hay wrapper be an option where folks could wrap hay and store it at a higher location where it wouldn't be susceptible to flood, or it didn't have to be under cover where it could get flooded?
Miranda Reiman (42:01):
When you talk about moving hay to different places or thinking about that, are there things that producers can do looking at their own operations to sort of -- you can't ever bulletproof yourself for natural disaster -- but are there things that you can do to prepare for the worst so you're ready when they do show up?
Steve Herbst (42:20):
One of the first things that comes to my mind is we're not in a flood zone, but if we were, and actually one thing we do naturally is whenever we think about a new stackyard or a place to store hay, we always look for a high point. And when we see how things go in different parts of the country, we learn and we say, hey, we don't want to store hay in a lowland place and we want to haul some gravel in and build some drainage and just a few little common sense things. But generators, that's another thing.
Callie Carson (42:53):
Having hookups for generators. Generators are only as good as the connections that you have or have not to connect them.
Steve Herbst (43:01):
Between the supply and the demand.
Callie Carson (43:02):
Yeah, if you have a generator and our well pump, we didn't have water for our cows for five days, but didn't have a generator connection because we've never not had power for five days. So that's something of, okay, if we have well-fed water tanks or if you have well-fed water tanks, you should probably have a generator connection to be able to feed your well pump. Otherwise, you're going to be hauling water to cows until, livestock in general, until the power comes back on.
Miranda Reiman (43:37):
Steve, I heard you say generators with the plural. I think a lot of times up in the northern states, we're used to being without power sometimes from blizzards and things like that, but typically we would have to move it around from location to location where we had livestock. But you're talking situations where you might be without power for an extended period of time. You don't want to be moving that generator to the grow yard if you've got one. Or…
Steve Herbst (44:02):
One of the things that's unique to our area is there are times when we get 25 below zero, 30 below zero, and it doesn't matter where you have water, it's subject to freezing and freezing fast. So, some of these natural disasters cause you to think a little bit about, do I have backup for this facet of my operation? Do I have backups for this and that and the other? The other thing that is important is, as a decision-maker in your enterprise or your business, your farm or ranch, it causes you to ask yourself, what kind of electricity do I need? Because in our area, we have three-phase power, and we have single-phase power. We have 110 volt, we have 220, we have 440. And so, a generator is a generator, but the generator may not be the provider that you need in these different situations. And so, these kinds of catastrophes, then they generate awareness in our own minds. And I think if you want to prepare for the next disaster, it does help cause you to think about what I could need if something like this were to occur.
Callie Carson (45:17):
I would also say a disaster is not the time to build relationships with a veterinarian or a cooperative extension. If you don't have an FSA number for your farm, we've got farmers that are on a wait list to just file paperwork, disaster paperwork with FSA, and it's probably going to be January before they get to sit down, before they come off the wait list to talk to somebody. To prepare, have your farm on file with the Farm Service Agency, have a relationship with your cooperative extension agent, soil and water, NRCS. If you're in an area with BLM, having a relationship with those people, having phone numbers, having addresses means you know who to call and they know who you are. They know to call and check on you. They know to reach out. Being involved with your Farm Bureau or Grange, your cattleman's association, your livestock bureau, having those relationships in advance will help if you need to reach out to get assistance when something happens because they know who you are.
Kara Lee (46:28):
And I would even add to that, something Steve said that made me think of it is, if you're the decision-maker and you have these ideas or the plan in place, who else have you told that plan to? Because we all know that there are times when a natural disaster, heaven forbid somebody gets stranded over here, or if the natural disaster impacts one of the very key decision-makers and there's still others on the operation, they're looking for direction, wanting to do things. Have you put your plan some place where -- is it well communicated to others around you? And honestly, it's the same theory as if you have a will, does your spouse or do your loved ones know where to access those things? If you have a plan for the things that need to be done in times of need, have...
Miranda Reiman (47:19):
You told somebody?
Kara Lee (47:20):
Have you told somebody? Have you told the hired help? Have you told the next generation in your family that might be back at the farm or ranch? What is our FSA number? Who is our BLM contact? How do I get a hold of them?
Callie Carson (47:31):
Have copies of insurance policies, have copies of livestock identification. If there's an indemnity program for flood or fire, I mean having records in advance, how many cows, how many sheep, how many acres of forestland do I have? Because trying to put that together after, when you're stressed, when you're short of sleep, and a lot of folks after disaster don't know that they're experiencing PTSD symptoms and you can't put that plan together when your heart, your mind are not in the right place.
Miranda Reiman (48:13):
It was actually a question I had written down is how do you get through the disaster mentally? We've talked about the financial impacts, we've talked about the impacts to the operation, but I mean, once you've been through something like that, how do you get over it? How do you move on?
Callie Carson (48:31):
It's like a cut, right? The cut heals, but you still have a scar and you can put silicone cream on it and it might fade, but it’s there, and it's up to you how you wear it. I guess I'm not going to be great at this answer because we're still,
Miranda Reiman (48:49):
You're living it.
Callie Carson (48:49):
We're still in the middle of it. And part of how you carry it to me is how you're supported by those around you. And we talked about the volunteers and the folks that show up at the very first and one of the questions that folks have when they want to donate supplies, or they want to donate. My first question is, is it in the way? Is it under cover? Is it bothering you? Do you have to right, hay, do you have to get rid of it now? No, I don't have to get rid of it now. Okay, great. Because in three months, six months, eight months, people are still going to need, right? They're going to need hay, they're going to need support. Are we going to need seed to re-seed river bottoms? I don't know because there's so much sand and rock on these river bottoms that you can't even get to them to seed. So probably the same thing in a fire, we have needs that we don't know yet, and they need to be spaced out of what's urgent, what I'm going to call critical, what can help rebuild and what can help long term. And so, to be part of the solution, there are great people who have called and said, if you have a list of long-term help, put me on the long-term list because I have X, Y, and Z. When you need it, call me.
Steve Herbst (50:19):
Yeah, I think those are some excellent points. We had a neighbor one time whose dairy barn burned down. It wasn't 20 minutes and six trailers from neighbors were there hauling the dairy cows to a neighboring barn. And one of the things that they learned from that is they said, we're no longer going to put a fire, a fireplace in our dairy barn. So, they went to a different heat source. So that's one of the things, and they'll never return to that. But the one thing that has happened and it's just like the cut, but it's also, it develops characteristics in you that you cannot gain any other way. And I call it resilience. And I think one of the emotional challenges when you have things like these disasters come your way is it's difficult not to look at the great big picture and feel anxiety and be overwhelmed at all of the things that come your way.
Callie Carson (52:24):
You might agree, help is a four-letter word, but it's not a dirty word. And a lot of farmers are the first to step up to help somebody else, to help their neighbor, but there's a sense of pride and honor that sometimes we don't always want to accept help. And that's one of the healing things too, is allowing folks to help and to come in and to give you a hug and cut trees off the fence or rebuild or take a bag of seed, take a bag of feed. We have somebody and he said, I don't want charity. And I said, it's a bag of chicken feed. It's not charity. So, part of it is, healing is accepting.
Kara Lee (53:15):
And I always remind farmers and ranchers, think about how you would feel if you were trying to lend help to one of your neighbors, if you were trying to bring hay, offer corrals, offer a pot trailer to come move some cows. That lends emotional fulfillment to you to be allowed to help. And when you don't allow other people to help, in a way you're stealing their joy in that sense. And it's important to be able to swallow that pride and let us help.
Callie Carson (53:46):
My hope is that my children don't remember. I know that sounds terrible, but my most vivid memory of Hugo was having to get our market lambs out of their pens and put them in the stock trailer so that they wouldn't be in a flooded area. And my mom taking plyboard and plyboarded up the stock trailer so that the rain wouldn't come in the trailer on these market lambs. And my children have been with me on supply runs and my children have been with me visiting farmers and collecting and fundraising and dropping beef at a restaurant for community meals. And one of our key points of contact has been a high school senior that's been reaching out. And the high school seniors were in eighth grade when Covid hit. So, they didn't have an eighth grade year and now they're seniors and they're out of school.
Miranda Reiman (55:23):
It really goes back to that resilience you talked about and be tough kids and learn a lot coming out of that.
Steve Herbst (55:32):
Well, I think they can connect by using bookface.
Callie Carson (55:36):
They can. Social media has been a blessing and a curse. If I had any suggestion for folks that want to help, if you see social media posts about this is an immediate need or this is urgent, look for keywords, buzzwords, urgent is probably on the softer end. But if somebody gives GPS coordinates, if it's a screenshot of a post, if it's, look at the date. If it's from three weeks ago, ask the contact that has shared it. Do you have somebody at this source? Is this still a need? Because four weeks later, we have posts from fire departments from four weeks ago where they were asking for supplies that they don't need any more, or they've shut down as a collection facility in general. And these weeks, months-old posts are being shared. Good people will always be good people. There's something about a disaster that brings out an opportunity to scam. So, if it's a Venmo collection or a PayPal collection or a GoFundMe, make sure it's the original one because we've seen Venmo accounts and PayPal accounts be duplicated and somebody changed one letter, added a dash at the end. So just be mindful as you go through where you're sending money. I don't want it to sound like I don't want folks to help but just, I don't understand in the middle of a disaster when people are hurting that folks want to use it as an opportunity to take advantage of the situation.
Miranda Reiman (57:18):
It's good advice to be mindful of and also makes those shining lights of the people that have come forward that are the good ones in the disaster, makes them just shine a little brighter.
Callie Carson (57:28):
That's where having local contacts, destinations is very, very important.
Miranda Reiman (57:34):
Well, you guys have shared a ton of wisdom. I always end this podcast on a random question of the week. Since we have talked about disasters and things that are always pulling at your heartstrings, those kinds of things, I want to know, what is your favorite comfort food? Oh, you're having to think about it. Mine’s beef and noodles. I love beef and noodles…come in after a blizzard or something like that, that's like an ideal warm in your belly kind of food.
Kara Lee (58:08):
Cheeseburger soup.
Miranda Reiman (58:10):
Cheeseburger soup. Oh, I like it.
Kara Lee (58:12):
Wintertime staple in our house.
Miranda Reiman (58:14):
 I like it. You get a thought, Steve.
Steve Herbst (58:16):
Well, two foods come to mind. One is a moderate-sized baked potato with a nice rib-eye steak as the main course. And then the two foods that come to my mind that give me a lot of comfort. One is about a 16-ounce glass of whole milk with a nice 60-second heated up Costco poppy seed muffin.
Kara Lee (58:43):
That’s very specific.
Miranda Reiman (58:44):
That is very specific.
Steve Herbst (58:45):
Yeah. The other one is about 14 ounces of milk and three Oreo cookies.
Kara Lee (58:52):
Approximately.
Steve Herbst (58:54):
They're pretty finite.
Kara Lee (58:54):
Feel like need to raid your snack cabinet, Steve, we’d get along.
Callie Carson (58:59):
I'm sadly gluten-free. I want to say chicken and dumplings. And I know this is a beef…
Miranda Reiman (59:04):
But it's okay. Chicken and dumplings are high on our list.
Callie Carson (59:07):
And that's very specific. Not like the noodly dumplings, the big biscuity.
Miranda Reiman (59:11):
Oh yeah.
Callie Carson (59:12):
But a pot roast and mashed potatoes.
Miranda Reiman (59:15):
Right. These are great ideas. And we also, some of us skipped lunch to record this podcast, so I'm now hungry, too. Thank you so much for being on today and for giving us just a glimpse into what it's like for producers who are currently experiencing this. Maybe we'll have producers that are nodding their heads at some of the lessons and the good stories that you shared out of it too. And just know that we're thinking of all of those across the United States who are dealing with some pretty tough situations right now. But thanks for joining us today.
Callie Carson Callie Carson (59:44):
Thank you for having us.
Steve Herbst (59:45):
You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me to come.
Miranda Reiman (59:50):
And with that, we've put a bow on season five. We've had a blast going from Illinois and Wisconsin to Oregon and Oklahoma and many places in between telling the stories of Angus breeders and what's on their mind. We hope you'll join us back for season six with new episodes dropping January 21st. And in the meantime, we hope to catch up with you in person at events like Cattlemen's Congress in Oklahoma or National Western Stock Show in Denver. And as we head into the holiday season, we send our sincerest wishes for time to focus on what matters most. From the entire Angus Journal team, we wish you a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. This has been the Angus Conversation, an Angus Journal podcast.